Battle of wits against Her

[Jortie Jeep]

Whenever I reach the terminus of a playthrough and the final dialogue with Her begins, my brain starts to malfunction. I don't really know what to make of anything she says and I to appear be saying all the wrong things, relying instead (whether I want it or not) on the Hero's help.

Is there a way to convince Her *not* to do whatever it is she is doing (à la Fallout's The Master) or is the game rigged from the start?

EDIT: Reading through the discussions in the comments is far worthier of your time than attempting to answer my vapid question so don't bother with it. Give them a look instead.

[Jortie Jeep]

Actually: what the hell am I even fighting for? From my understanding She represents impermanence or death. All She's trying to do is to reset the status quo whereas we are trying to usher in an age of undeath. Like, what do you mean death and suffering ends if She's slain? What is going on here?

I am woefully out of my depth here...

[cricharddavies]

Originally posted by Jokalezo, the Quest Giver:

Is there a way to convince Her *not* to do whatever it is she is doing (à la Fallout's The Master) or is the game rigged from the start?

There is no way to convince her not to do what she's doing; the only thing that "discussion" decides is whether or not you agree to go along with it.

[Snailor Lazzy]

Originally posted by Jokalezo, the Quest Giver:

Actually: what the hell am I even fighting for? From my understanding She represents impermanence or death. All She's trying to do is to reset the status quo whereas we are trying to usher in an age of undeath. Like, what do you mean death and suffering ends if She's slain? What is going on here?

I am woefully out of my depth here...

You get a taste of it if you actually do what the Narrator says and slays the princess. You get to spend an eternity of nothing in an empty room, an eternity of comfortable, boring bliss. The Princess is death, impermanence and renewal. Take that away from the world and all you get is stagnancy where nothing ever happens.

[Jortie Jeep]

Originally posted by Snailor Lazzy:

Originally posted by Jokalezo, the Quest Giver:

Actually: what the hell am I even fighting for? From my understanding She represents impermanence or death. All She's trying to do is to reset the status quo whereas we are trying to usher in an age of undeath. Like, what do you mean death and suffering ends if She's slain? What is going on here?

I am woefully out of my depth here...

You get a taste of it if you actually do what the Narrator says and slays the princess. You get to spend an eternity of nothing in an empty room, an eternity of comfortable, boring bliss. The Princess is death, impermanence and renewal. Take that away from the world and all you get is stagnancy where nothing ever happens.

I've already tried that, but I do appreciate the input.

That's what I was thinking: you kill Her, and the world stops.

It doesn't even mark the end of suffering necessarily, but potentially the start of suffering everlasting. Hell, not even that. After a while you probably won't even feel much of anything. Just... nothingness.

Maybe it's just my zoomer brain that's near-constantly exposed to external stimuli talking, but I can't imagine that's good for anyone.

Me personally? I'd probably go insane in that cabin within hours.

[Snailor Lazzy]

Originally posted by Jokalezo, the Quest Giver:

Originally posted by Snailor Lazzy:

You get a taste of it if you actually do what the Narrator says and slays the princess. You get to spend an eternity of nothing in an empty room, an eternity of comfortable, boring bliss. The Princess is death, impermanence and renewal. Take that away from the world and all you get is stagnancy where nothing ever happens.

I've already tried that, but I do appreciate the input.

That's what I was thinking: you kill Her, and the world stops.

It doesn't even mark the end of suffering necessarily, but potentially the start of suffering everlasting. Hell, not even that. After a while you probably won't even feel much of anything. Just... nothingness.

Maybe it's just my zoomer brain that's near-constantly exposed to external stimuli talking, but I can't imagine that's good for anyone.

Me personally? I'd probably go insane in that cabin within hours.

Yes. Death and suffering are both irreplaceable parts of life. For life to have any meaning, you must accept them both as your constant companion. It's one of the big messages this game tries to impart on the player.

The Narrator is ultimately just a coward who fears death and suffering so much that he's ready to embrace nothingness to avoid it. It is the equivalence of somebody who's so afraid of dying to a freak occurrence that they'll simply sit down in the middle of an empty room and do nothing, thinking this will stop them from dying. The truth is that once a person makes this decision in earnest, they have already died in every way that matters.

I don't hate people who make that choice as much as I pity them. However, the Narrator took it on himself to make that choice for EVERYONE and not just himself. For that I hold nothing but hatred for him.

[Sishiya]

Originally posted by Snailor Lazzy:

Originally posted by Jokalezo, the Quest Giver:

I've already tried that, but I do appreciate the input.

That's what I was thinking: you kill Her, and the world stops.

It doesn't even mark the end of suffering necessarily, but potentially the start of suffering everlasting. Hell, not even that. After a while you probably won't even feel much of anything. Just... nothingness.

Maybe it's just my zoomer brain that's near-constantly exposed to external stimuli talking, but I can't imagine that's good for anyone.

Me personally? I'd probably go insane in that cabin within hours.

Yes. Death and suffering are both irreplaceable parts of life. For life to have any meaning, you must accept them both as your constant companion. It's one of the big messages this game tries to impart on the player.

The Narrator is ultimately just a coward who fears death and suffering so much that he's ready to embrace nothingness to avoid it. It is the equivalence of somebody who's so afraid of dying to a freak occurrence that they'll simply sit down in the middle of an empty room and do nothing, thinking this will stop them from dying. The truth is that once a person makes this decision in earnest, they have already died in every way that matters.

I don't hate people who make that choice as much as I pity them. However, the Narrator took it on himself to make that choice for EVERYONE and not just himself. For that I hold nothing but hatred for him.

Try and find some pity for him too: he was so terrified of death that he endeavored to find a means to save/protect everyone from it. From his warped perspective, he was doing the right thing as witnessed by his foremost concern being an entire world having already ended when he finally accepts the truth that you've "been here before". Not once does he lament the loss of his "previous self" against the loss of everyone else.

If you can't find meaning in death then you can't accept it and if you can't accept it then you can't do anything but try to fight it. Once you start fighting something that happens to everyone then it's not a tall leap to reason that everyone else must be making a wrong choice somewhere and to try and "save" them from it.

[Mentor Diver]

I will say my choice Confront her, she will bring the vessels to convince you, stay silence, until the end, when is given you a choise, response now its your turn to convince her, Hero bring you back to cabin, take the blade, speak to her, let her slay you, this is my ending, it all reapets again, again and again. I liked it, for me its my cannon ending, my first and my last.

[Snailor Lazzy]

Originally posted by Sishiya:

Originally posted by Snailor Lazzy:

Yes. Death and suffering are both irreplaceable parts of life. For life to have any meaning, you must accept them both as your constant companion. It's one of the big messages this game tries to impart on the player.

The Narrator is ultimately just a coward who fears death and suffering so much that he's ready to embrace nothingness to avoid it. It is the equivalence of somebody who's so afraid of dying to a freak occurrence that they'll simply sit down in the middle of an empty room and do nothing, thinking this will stop them from dying. The truth is that once a person makes this decision in earnest, they have already died in every way that matters.

I don't hate people who make that choice as much as I pity them. However, the Narrator took it on himself to make that choice for EVERYONE and not just himself. For that I hold nothing but hatred for him.

Try and find some pity for him too: he was so terrified of death that he endeavored to find a means to save/protect everyone from it. From his warped perspective, he was doing the right thing as witnessed by his foremost concern being an entire world having already ended when he finally accepts the truth that you've "been here before". Not once does he lament the loss of his "previous self" against the loss of everyone else.

If you can't find meaning in death then you can't accept it and if you can't accept it then you can't do anything but try to fight it. Once you start fighting something that happens to everyone then it's not a tall leap to reason that everyone else must be making a wrong choice somewhere and to try and "save" them from it.

No. I understand what you're saying but I cannot accept that viewpoint myself. Making a choice like that on behalf of everybody in the world is so fundamentally opposed to my own personal ethics that I have very little pity to give him.

But I recognize that others--like yourself, it seems--think differently and that's fine.

[Jortie Jeep]

Originally posted by Sishiya:

Originally posted by Snailor Lazzy:

Yes. Death and suffering are both irreplaceable parts of life. For life to have any meaning, you must accept them both as your constant companion. It's one of the big messages this game tries to impart on the player.

The Narrator is ultimately just a coward who fears death and suffering so much that he's ready to embrace nothingness to avoid it. It is the equivalence of somebody who's so afraid of dying to a freak occurrence that they'll simply sit down in the middle of an empty room and do nothing, thinking this will stop them from dying. The truth is that once a person makes this decision in earnest, they have already died in every way that matters.

I don't hate people who make that choice as much as I pity them. However, the Narrator took it on himself to make that choice for EVERYONE and not just himself. For that I hold nothing but hatred for him.

Try and find some pity for him too: he was so terrified of death that he endeavored to find a means to save/protect everyone from it. From his warped perspective, he was doing the right thing as witnessed by his foremost concern being an entire world having already ended when he finally accepts the truth that you've "been here before". Not once does he lament the loss of his "previous self" against the loss of everyone else.

If you can't find meaning in death then you can't accept it and if you can't accept it then you can't do anything but try to fight it. Once you start fighting something that happens to everyone then it's not a tall leap to reason that everyone else must be making a wrong choice somewhere and to try and "save" them from it.

Aye. Never felt any ill will towards the Narrator, in spite of Him being so unforthcoming. While He was making a choice on behalf of everyone - their own perspectives notwithstanding - I can at least somewhat understand why he believes it to be the right thing to do.

He's no villain (despite what the Smitten might say), but rather a man so scared of death that he never truly cared to live.

Reminds me a tiny bit of Kergan from Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura in a way.

[Mentor Diver]

No. I understand what you're saying but I cannot accept that viewpoint myself. Making a choice like that on behalf of everybody in the world is so fundamentally opposed to my own personal ethics that I have very little pity to give him.

But I recognize that others--like yourself, it seems--think differently and that's fine.

For me Narrator is a echo from your past self, and you are the death itself, the crow is symbol of death, you wanted to stop yourself and te princess is like the nature, keeps changing, even without you... like you said, we played the same game, and i have different conclusions, thats why i liked so much of this game.

[Snailor Lazzy]

Originally posted by Imperiestro:

No. I understand what you're saying but I cannot accept that viewpoint myself. Making a choice like that on behalf of everybody in the world is so fundamentally opposed to my own personal ethics that I have very little pity to give him.

But I recognize that others--like yourself, it seems--think differently and that's fine.

For me Narrator is a echo from your past self, and you are the death itself, the crow is symbol of death, you wanted to stop yourself and te princess is like the nature, keeps changing, even without you... like you said, we played the same game, and i have different conclusions, thats why i liked so much of this game.

Yes, I've enjoyed talking about the game with my friends who played it a lot, comparing and discussing interpretations and perspectives. There's just enough defined for the narrative to not be incomprehensible, but also just enough undefined that people can experience very different interpretations. It is a hallmark of great pieces of writing when it can be used as a mirror of the reader; when their interpretations say more about themselves than it does about the writing in question.

[Jortie Jeep]

Originally posted by Imperiestro:

I will say my choice Confront her, she will bring the vessels to convince you, stay silence, until the end, when is given you a choise, response now its your turn to convince her, Hero bring you back to cabin, take the blade, speak to her, let her slay you, this is my ending, it all reapets again, again and again. I liked it, for me its my cannon ending, my first and my last.

Mine too, honestly. It's kind of funny how I saved just prior to being stabbed, saw that damn dirt path again and thought "Well, that's it for the night" as it was far too late in the night for me to have another go. Came back the next day thinking everything's going to proceed as normal and then the game ends. I was practically one (1) click away from the credits.

[Mentor Diver]

I agree, the more you play it, more you understand not just the writing but yourself.

[cricharddavies]

Originally posted by Sishiya:

Try and find some pity for him too: he was so terrified of death that he endeavored to find a means to save/protect everyone from it.

I have no pity for him whatsoever, and I hope he was posturing when he said it didn't hurt him when those mirrors broke. I hope it hurt a lot. He wasn't scared of death. He was scared of life, of people making choices he didn't like. I hate people like this in the real world, I will never not hate them in fiction.

[yamidamian]

You can't "convince" her of anything, any more than you can convince a hurricane to change its path. Changing your mind is for people-who she isn't. You're the only one who's decision ultimately matters, the 'battle' is nothing more than giving you some food for thought before you decide