I think despite intentions this game is still a map painter

[欣怡 (Nathalie)]

I love the game don’t get me wrong. And I find the varied buildings as fun to discover as I did in Empires. But ultimately there’s very little reason not to expand.

It’s the most effective way of getting both legacy and conversely authority. At least this is my experience. Especially when the HRE and Byzantium start with such a lead. One is encouraged to help dismantle them or conquer them.

Authority does slow down expansion. But it doesn’t encourage nor give reason to play tall. Playing tall is also rather boring as the game lacks the dynastic, cultural and religious details of other medieval strategy games like ck3. This isn’t a criticism as such, but I think it’s why the game feels so similar to total war and not ck3.

Playing tall in ck3 has more to do than this or M2tw. Just wondering if others have a similar experience? Really playing tall in this game means just building things. Something I do if I play wide anyway.

[choppinlt]

I think this all depends on your personal definition of what a map painter is. While I don't know that it fits that definition for me, I generally agree with your assessment. This game is a map painter if you want it to be, but you can build tall if you want to. I choose more of a hybrid approach in that I don't need paint the whole map, but I do strive to be the alpha dog.

So yes, on my limited experience playing tall (which is VERY limited) your comments seem to be fair IMHO.

[willgamer47]

What's everyone's working definition of tall?

My first impression it that tall might mean taking regions up to about the number of court members available to manage them.

[Hannibal0216 도마도 재배자]

I think we might be looking at it different ways. I would argue that TW and CK have far less to do with playing tall, especially Total War, given that size is directly proportional to how many troops you can support, and also there is barely any economy to speak of. I don't think endless expansion is necessary to be successful.

[bodkinhead]

I do like the game but I feel in some ways the game encourages you to map paint. I'm playing as Venice, I start with 1 region yet I'm required to have 15 to be able to progress to the next level of government, this is a similar situation to most nations I have played.

[欣怡 (Nathalie)]

Originally posted by Hannibal0216 도마도 재배자:

I think we might be looking at it different ways. I would argue that TW and CK have far less to do with playing tall, especially Total War, given that size is directly proportional to how many troops you can support, and also there is barely any economy to speak of. I don't think endless expansion is necessary to be successful.

No I agree.
Total war has no tall play whatsoever. I was saying this game reminds me most of Medieval total war 2 because of that. Which had (especially in mods) a semi complex economy with around the same amount of dynastic gameplay as this game.

The buildings are fun in this. But that’s really all there is, and they feel ultimately secondary. Since the end goal of them is to either generate legacy/authority (though so far never enough to rule out expansion fully), or metal, money, manpower for troops.

I guess by map painter I meant that one needs to take a sizeable amount of land. Rather than endless expansion. It’s needed to level up ones government, which is ultimately the game play loop. My definition of tall is I think different to most it seems aha.

Ck3 had lots to do in peace time. One can reform religion, create new religions. Hybridise cultures or change them. Hold tournaments, tour one’s realm, hold feasts and hunts. Seek out peaceful ways of acquiring territory via marriages, or simply bloodlines. There is also a royal court one can build up and customise…. I don’t think this game needs any of that. It’s great fun. But it’s much closer to a total war type game imo.

[PocusFR]

With the resources we have (in manpower and time), we choose to focus a lot of our efforts on the buildings proposed (584 so far). We just can't rival what Paradox has invested into CK3, both in terms of manpower and DLCs released (though the price...). It's not a big secret, so I feel I can openly say that.

So, this being set (focusing on buildings), it means that even if you play wide and are very successful at it, you can also just acquire what is necessary to evolve and then build up your regions. The numerous buildings and extra free slots you can get make it viable to have a powerhouse nation with 30 or fewer regions.

It's admittedly not "playing tall" as in "I own 1-5 regions and can win," indeed. It's "playing tall" as in "only conquer what is required to progress and that's it."

Also, factor in that you can conquer, form vassals, and thus reduce the requirement for progress significantly. Each vassal removes 7% (from memory). In theory, you could stay below 10 regions until the end game with enough vassals.

You can even try this challenge: create as many vassals as possible and stay very, very tall. It's no more absurd to choose this challenge than to increase the difficulty level if the game is too easy now that you've mastered it. You have all the necessary tools to shape your idea of fun.