Founding A Kingdom, DUMBEST thing I did? YES

[Shawshank]

Firstly, the "Found a Kingdom" option kinda insinuate that one creates a petty kingdom, not true.
Secondly, one might suspect that performing this task might have a single benefit, not true.

Starting as Apulia and Calabria one has the option to "found a kingdom", fake news btw, it's more like pure propaganda.
Having secured 10 regions and Palermo(required) the "Kingdom" was founded automatically.

So I founded Sicily (Duchy, just as before), I did not become a King, fake news i guess.
And having 10 regions now, so close to ones limit of 12 demesne regions, creating a vassal is obvious for any fake King. Now the region of Sicily is full of unrest and turmoil from the sunni-muslim population(just conquered to), so I gave it away to my newly formed vassal of Lombardy.

Now what did my vassal get from all my sweat and tears? Ha ha ha hahhahahaha
A BLOODY TIER II Petty Kingdom title. I guess the Pope truly hates Normans(historical joke)
And I am a proud Duke with a King (Lombardy) as my subject. Bloody Hell

Well I gained a vassal that will convert Sicily to a prime real-estate for me to gobble up later.
At least my worries are gone. Ha ha ha NO see manual:
"However, if it loses the historical capital region then it will revert to its original
name (regardless of other criteria)."

So by forming a vassal from the Peer of Sicily, Palermo was automatically handed away.
Now I shall loose my new "KINGDOM" title, fake news btw. And again be know as Apulia and Calabria, unless I buy Palermo back from my vassal and reconquer up to 10 regions.
B o o o o ring

And best of all . .. . . .. . . There is as far as I see, NO benefit to founding SICILY
Same title Duchy
Same Tier Young Duchy Tier I
Exactly the same perks that are linked to you being Norman not the "Kingdom"

[Shawshank]

Is there a Kingdom one actually get benefits by founding?

[Nepos]

As the manual also says, one advantage of founding a kingdom is that for certain factions this is a prerequisite in order to advantage to higher form of governments. Without that a French duchy will always stay a duchy, instead of progressing to kingdom/empire, with obvious consequences on max demeane and legacy generation. I believe founding a kingdom also provides extra SAU allowance, but I am not 100% sure about this one. Anyway Pocus is thinking of adding extra bonuses to certain kingdoms

[Ricochet]

I didn't know you can foumd one. I was thinking of adavncing tiers.

[Panfuricus]

I'd generally agree that forming Kingdoms should probably raise your rank to something historically relevant. Al-Andalus has the same issue, but much worse since it's 25 province requirement in an area with all Taifas (who have extremely low base territory limits)

[Shawshank]

Originally posted by Nepos:

As the manual also says, one advantage of founding a kingdom is that for certain factions this is a prerequisite in order to advantage to higher form of governments. Without that a French duchy will always stay a duchy, instead of progressing to kingdom/empire, with obvious consequences on max demeane and legacy generation. I believe founding a kingdom also provides extra SAU allowance, but I am not 100% sure about this one. Anyway Pocus is thinking of adding extra bonuses to certain kingdoms

There where no changes at all from forming Sicily, SAU stayed the same to. I hope they redo "founding a kingdom", right now it looks completely useless.

[Palpat]

There is a balance to find there, at least for Sicily but probably for other formables.
I think authority gain, and hence tokens + advancement is too harsh to achieve the historical timeframe. When you have Sicily, you are at max domesne limit. So, no authority gain. You reach 50, so first maluses arrive.
And so, you are stuck in mid score tier -usually where you are by forming Sicily and can't go upward... and can't get progress tokens.

So, either :
- grant the Kingdom rank upon gaining/forming Sicily (but risk of snowballing) ;
- grant a bonus of Authority/tokens when reaching a formable;
- aleviate the authority maluses regarding being close to domesne limit.

[Grognerd]

One advantage of forming a kingdom is an increase in your free unit support. From the manual:

"14.7.2. Army Upkeep

Every faction has a variable number of units with reduced costs ...

... The reduction is 20 money, 2 metal and 5 manpower per unit.
The reduction is allocated to the most expensive units you own. ...

... By default each faction has 10 such units but this may be
reduced according to the traits of your current ruler. The Seljuqs
are allowed 15. If you form one of the available Kingdoms (10.1.3)
such as France or Sicily your basic allowance will be increased
to 15."

That being said, these Forum are being read, and so, additional benefits to forming a kingdom may be in the cards ... we'll see!

[Palpat]

My own reflexion is less about Kingdom forming and more about some tag switching (mainly Apulia -> Sicily. Game is a week old, hadn't had much time to test a lot). In that case, you just change your name. That's all.

[PocusFR]

Did you check the Nation Panel, Realm Traits, central section (factional)?

According to the database, forming Sicily will provide (in addition to +5 Retinue as Grognerd says, which is a bonus of up to 100 gold, 25 manpower, and 10 metal per turn saved on upkeep):

Italo-Normans Cultural Perk III
-3 to unrest on the population of different faiths (huge!)
+2 Trade Acumen (decent)
+10% Commerce (good)

Apulia & Calabria have it but at level 1, so significantly weaker.

Mercenary Tradition
I won't detail this one, as it is already given to Apulia at the start, so you won't double up on it, but it would be added to places like Salerno, Napoli, etc.

So, I would not say that forming Sicily provides nothing, even to Apulia. The 5 retinues and the upgrade to the 3 perks are nice. Perhaps not as good as if you were Pisa or Salerno forming Sicily, but still noteworthy. For any other major, this is a large bonus.

That said, for version 1.01, we have modified the rule so you are guaranteed to reach a certain realm level when forming a nation. In this case, your Duchy will be promoted to a young petty kingdom, which is equivalent to about 30 positive tokens worth of progress.

[Palpat]

Nice!

Do you have a rough timeframe of when 1.01 will drop? Matter of days? Weeks? Months?

[PocusFR]

We will want to start it as a Steam beta for some days, just to be sure no bugs are added back. We are looking for having it online before the end of June, but I can't be too precise.

[Palpat]

Sweet!