Easier puzzle sets?

[Arno]

I was just reading over the reviews for DD and a lot of them harp on the high difficulty level of the puzzles, past the tutorial. It took me back to when I first picked up the game, and discovered the same thing: I loved the idea of the game, but the whole "bite-sized runs" thing never rang true for me because the time investment just isn't that small. Well, I mean, I guess if you're not interested in success then you can keep it as small as you want.

Anyway, just wondering if there are any plans for either version of the game to have a larger selection of easier puzzles? I'm aware of the new game's "undo" feature, but I'm not really looking for a way to allow me to spend more time working out a harder puzzle; I'm after a way to have puzzles that are shorter in the first place. Can the procedural generator be tweaked somehow to generate something easier?

Otherwise, for my part...congrats on your legacy, it's a great game/idea and I hope this new coat of paint brings you a bunch of new sales but I'm afraid I won't really play it much beyond checking out the tutorial again when I get the new version.

[dislekcia!]

The difficulty curve has been tweaked so that the levels after the tutorial are less punishing, but as you get more tools and unlocks that increase your relative power, the difficulty of the levels will amp back up to try and keep you challenged.

There are other balance changes that should make the learning process better too, the biggest one is the Fighter rework. We found that players were learning bad habits from the way the original Fighter class played, things that would make playing other classes and later dungeons much harder. The rework should push players to learn useful efficiencies instead :)

[dislekcia!]

We also highlighted the various additional learning/tutorial content in the game (the non-random puzzles and the specific class challenges) that were built to help folks learn the game's intricacies. In the original game, players often had no idea those even existed and would get frustrated with only playing the dungeon progression without the unlocks from the class challenges.

[Arno]

I appreciate your looking into it; it still kinda sounds like there's a finite number of "casual" puzzles and once you get through them, the era of "bite-sized sessions" is over (regardless of what an individual player's skill level is, they'll eventually reach that plateau at some point). There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, of course; it just might not be what I personally was hoping for. Still, if there are adjustments then I'll definitely check it out when it releases (I mean, I was already going to, but now I super will ;)).

Assuming for the sake of argument that I'm still too much of a filthy casual for even the newly-nerfed content...could I suggest maybe a separate one-off puzzle generator ("separate" meaning "not part of the RPG campaign") where players could generate individual easy puzzles for when they really do just have 5-10 minutes to play? I realize that may be a significant request, depending on the game's existing architecture, but just putting it out there. :) That way you don't have to nerf the whole game (and perhaps compromise your overall vision for it) but could still cater to the "long-term casual" demographic.

If anybody else is reading this and you also would like an option for easier, more bite-sized puzzles, maybe drop a comment and let the devs know; if it's just me and everybody else is happy with the game as-is, there's really no reason for them to spend the time and effort.

[CalvinHobbes]

Originally posted by Arno:

I appreciate your looking into it; it still kinda sounds like there's a finite number of "casual" puzzles and once you get through them, the era of "bite-sized sessions" is over (regardless of what an individual player's skill level is, they'll eventually reach that plateau at some point). There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, of course; it just might not be what I personally was hoping for. Still, if there are adjustments then I'll definitely check it out when it releases (I mean, I was already going to, but now I super will ;)).

Assuming for the sake of argument that I'm still too much of a filthy casual for even the newly-nerfed content...could I suggest maybe a separate one-off puzzle generator ("separate" meaning "not part of the RPG campaign") where players could generate individual easy puzzles for when they really do just have 5-10 minutes to play? I realize that may be a significant request, depending on the game's existing architecture, but just putting it out there. :) That way you don't have to nerf the whole game (and perhaps compromise your overall vision for it) but could still cater to the "long-term casual" demographic.

If anybody else is reading this and you also would like an option for easier, more bite-sized puzzles, maybe drop a comment and let the devs know; if it's just me and everybody else is happy with the game as-is, there's really no reason for them to spend the time and effort.

When I bought and played the original DD on Steam I found it too difficult. I really enjoyed the game but I thought I couldn't make progress.

But because I like it so much I stuck with it and I started to understand the strategies involved. Suddenly the game clicked for me and I went on to beat the campaign. I'm still not great at the game but it is definitely doable. I'm the type of person who likes to complete games I start but when it comes to puzzle orientated games I usually can't.

As for the time per session, I can't remember what my minimum playtime was. It certainly didn't require huge chunks of my time.

[dislekcia!]

Originally posted by Arno:

could I suggest maybe a separate one-off puzzle generator ("separate" meaning "not part of the RPG campaign") where players could generate individual easy puzzles for when they really do just have 5-10 minutes to play?

That's already how the game works: Dungeon difficulty increases as you unlock things further and further out from the Kingdom. You can keep playing the closer dungeons for a more mellow/relaxing experience whenever you want. It's only when you're playing the newest unlocked dungeons that you'll be specifically challenged at the highest difficulty you've seen so far.

If you're not focused on progressing the campaign, then playing Hobbler's Hold all day is a great time :)

[Arno]

Originally posted by dislekcia!:

That's already how the game works: Dungeon difficulty increases as you unlock things further and further out from the Kingdom. You can keep playing the closer dungeons for a more mellow/relaxing experience whenever you want. It's only when you're playing the newest unlocked dungeons that you'll be specifically challenged at the highest difficulty you've seen so far.

If you're not focused on progressing the campaign, then playing Hobbler's Hold all day is a great time :)

Wait, so...you're saying I (or any hypothetical player) can find a dungeon that's at a difficulty level I like, and if I replay the same level it'll procedurally-generate a different dungeon at that location each time?

Did I try that before? It's been way too long for me to remember, but it's possible that it didn't occur to me to try that (not sure if I knew it was procedurally-generated back then). Just checked my last play time and it's July 13, 2014 so it's been a hot minute.

Welp, looks like it's time to do some research. Goodbye, OG last played timestamp! heh

[Ordon Draconis]

Yeah... every dungeon in the outside world was randomly generated each time. Only the "puzzles" inside the city were static. The increasing difficulties were essentially concentric circles. You could always keep to the radius that you enjoy, and venture further or do the quests when desired.

[Arno]

Originally posted by Arno:

Wait, so...you're saying I (or any hypothetical player) can find a dungeon that's at a difficulty level I like, and if I replay the same level it'll procedurally-generate a different dungeon at that location each time?

Did I try that before? It's been way too long for me to remember, but it's possible that it didn't occur to me to try that (not sure if I knew it was procedurally-generated back then). Just checked my last play time and it's July 13, 2014 so it's been a hot minute.

Hmm...well, since I wrote the above comment I've had a few more goes at it on a few different days and unfortunately I'm back to where I imagine I was before; it's just too hard for me. I mean, except for Hobbler's Hold, but that's a) no challenge at all, and b) doesn't help build up resources 'cause you've disabled the ability to earn gold there. That's not strictly a practical problem 'cause you can just open any dungeon, explore as far as you can without fighting anything, and escape with whatever potions and gold the RNG gave you...but that's not super satisfying. :)

I can't help but think there's some fundamental game mechanic(s) I just don't know about; I'm willing to accept the fact that it's just a hard game and I'm just not that good but even so it seems strange that between the tutorial and literally the first "real" dungeon it goes directly from "literally no planning required" straight to "murderously complex".

Does the game have any tutorial stuff other than the initial unskippable ones that are basically just like "This is a sword. It is sharp, so it can cut things. Congratulations to people who have never encountered a sharp object before, and have learned new things." I tried the puzzle stuff, but even the very first "introduction to slowing" puzzle (which I acknowledge is a puzzle, and not a tutorial, so it has no obligation to teach anything) is clearly hiding something 'cause I've gone through three or four different planning iterations without finding the solution...although I have increased how far I get before I die. It's not really just about slowing, it's also about reading every other character bonus and item interaction that the game has never discussed and understanding the implications...which is a great puzzle but maybe not for absolute beginners?

Anyway, maybe this game just isn't for me but I really want to get a handle on it 'cause I love everything else about the game! I mean, I got 100% completion on Antichamber for crying out loud, surely I can handle the first puzzle here. haha

[Endy73]

It is a roguelike (then puzzle). The genre implies that characters will die and players will learn a lot. But instead of traditional roguelikes you can play it as a minesweeperish kind of game if, you like, to stay on the shallow ground as long as you want playing normal dungeons with various kinds and class combinations. When you're ready for more pain and despair then you can try harder maps. My opinion, if normal dungeons are too hard for you, play the game, you need it. The game overwhelms you with nuances and brutally pushes you to think before clicking. It is not causal (almost) and it's really great.

[Arno]

Originally posted by Endy73:

It is a roguelike (then puzzle). The genre implies that characters will die and players will learn a lot. But instead of traditional roguelikes you can play it as a minesweeperish kind of game if, you like, to stay on the shallow ground as long as you want playing normal dungeons with various kinds and class combinations. When you're ready for more pain and despair then you can try harder maps. My opinion, if normal dungeons are too hard for you, play the game, you need it. The game overwhelms you with nuances and brutally pushes you to think before clicking. It is not causal (almost) and it's really great.

Yeah, I know rogue-lites (and -likes) are all about death, but I'm not learning anything. I don't mind staying in the kiddie pool, but the kiddie pool is literally only one location (Hobbler's Hold); I'm almost fine with just that anyway, but not quite (for the reasons I said above).

I did try just grinding the game more, hoping something would click or I'd find a relevant tutorial section, but I don't venerate difficulty as its own end like a lot of people do...I have a threshold of how much I can enjoy beating my face against the wall and this game has pretty much met it. Most of the time, I don't want to be overwhelmed or brutally pushed (challenged, yes, but not punished), but in this game the only two choices (for me) are either "no challenge at all" or "handcuffed and thrown in the piranha tank".

It is a great game...even when I'm playing and not enjoying it I can see that. It just looks like it's not for me. I wish there were a tier of location (or even just one location) that was between Hobbler's Hold "you don't need to know anything" difficulty and everything else that's "you must meticulously read every pixel on the screen and create a full report with TPS cover sheet to make it out".

If I get motivated again I may hop on YouTube and see if I can find any videos of somebody playing the first few "Medium" levels with commentary that explains the thought process of how they arrived at the solutions; that should address any "oh, I didn't even know that was a thing" issues I may be having without realizing it.

[Endy73]

Originally posted by Arno:

Originally posted by Endy73:

It is a roguelike (then puzzle). The genre implies that characters will die and players will learn a lot. But instead of traditional roguelikes you can play it as a minesweeperish kind of game if, you like, to stay on the shallow ground as long as you want playing normal dungeons with various kinds and class combinations. When you're ready for more pain and despair then you can try harder maps. My opinion, if normal dungeons are too hard for you, play the game, you need it. The game overwhelms you with nuances and brutally pushes you to think before clicking. It is not causal (almost) and it's really great.

Yeah, I know rogue-lites (and -likes) are all about death, but I'm not learning anything. I don't mind staying in the kiddie pool, but the kiddie pool is literally only one location (Hobbler's Hold); I'm almost fine with just that anyway, but not quite (for the reasons I said above).

I did try just grinding the game more, hoping something would click or I'd find a relevant tutorial section, but I don't venerate difficulty as its own end like a lot of people do...I have a threshold of how much I can enjoy beating my face against the wall and this game has pretty much met it. Most of the time, I don't want to be overwhelmed or brutally pushed (challenged, yes, but not punished), but in this game the only two choices (for me) are either "no challenge at all" or "handcuffed and thrown in the piranha tank".

It is a great game...even when I'm playing and not enjoying it I can see that. It just looks like it's not for me. I wish there were a tier of location (or even just one location) that was between Hobbler's Hold "you don't need to know anything" difficulty and everything else that's "you must meticulously read every pixel on the screen and create a full report with TPS cover sheet to make it out".

If I get motivated again I may hop on YouTube and see if I can find any videos of somebody playing the first few "Medium" levels with commentary that explains the thought process of how they arrived at the solutions; that should address any "oh, I didn't even know that was a thing" issues I may be having without realizing it.

Try puzzles (the Guild of Explorarion) and do it mindfully and attentive and several times. They teach A LOT of important mechanics. Also read about level-cannoning and popcorn monsters. It will help to improve your winrate. The game inspired by the Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup in many ways and also in the way that a player should watch a lot of YouTube and read a lot of the wiki to increase his characters survivability. I still watch DCSS videos and still learn it's nuances so I do with Desktop Dungeons. Both of them are great games, which I always recommend to my friends and familiars.

If you decide to go with the puzzles, i'd advise immideately reset puzzle on the first try. After that threre will appeare a signpost which explains mechanics involved in a puzzle solution. The signposts designed to appear after the first failure of a puzzle, so to avoid unnecessary frustration, just reset a puzzle at first)

[kory]

Originally posted by Endy73:

If you decide to go with the puzzles, i'd advise immideately reset puzzle on the first try. After that threre will appeare a signpost which explains mechanics involved in a puzzle solution. The signposts designed to appear after the first failure of a puzzle, so to avoid unnecessary frustration, just reset a puzzle at first)

I would say the frustration is part of the puzzle, try your own solution to the puzzle, do whatever you think will work, and when it fails you will be given an extra hint and you have some context for that hint because you have spent time thinking about the puzzle.

Or reset right away, to each their own.