New ID and teambuilding theory thread

[✚ Paracelsus ✚]

these are your new IDs for the next 2 weeks, say something nice about them.
https://twitter.com/LimbusCompany_B/status/1779804355723669613
https://twitter.com/LimbusCompany_B/status/1779804407867261342

Personally, I think the new Ryoshu ID is going to be broken. KK Rodion's skill 3, despite being a single coin, pumps insane damage once she has her conditionals up solely because she has a damage modifier on top of a damage modifier. Ryoshu has now been confirmed to multiple overlapping damage modifiers:
- Damage for every speed difference on targets with Butler's Mark, apparently without a cap
- Bonus damage percentage because of poise
- Bonus damage with skill 3 on staggered targets
This is before even factoring in Clear Water, Calm Mirror, Sunshower and/or Lucky Pouch. And since she's mostly going on the poise team instead of the sinking team, this also means she benefits from either Double Tap or Mentor's Council, depending on your preferred flavour of Greek yoghurt.

Also, that dodge is absurdly broken. One of the main drawbacks behind dodges in solo attempts was a general lack of effects and the fact they didn't count as clashes, so you didn't get any SP for dodging stuff. Now Ryoshu get poise count AND SP?

Will you be using her on your teams, if so, which ones? Which units will you be replacing to make room for her?

[A5G_Reaper]

She's looking to be a full poise ID, and we kinda got a lot of those around already what's with pequod, KK, and BL crew around. Low priority unless number is really good.

Or actually, if we count the Shi squad probably could've create a second poise team at this point. But I already got enough teams to cycle for maximum starlight bonus, so again low priority.

[SpearOfLies]

KK Rodion is a very low bar to set. Pirate Gregor with proper setup deal almost double of the damage and he require way less effort to make it work.

I really want to use Maid Ishmael, but I can't add her to a sinking team as I see no reason to use her over Boat Ishmael which is absolutely broken ID.
So the only other option is a bind/haste team with favor to slash damage. Luckily Maid Ryoshu is a good for this kind of idea. Unluckily theren't much good slash IDs that can take advantage of or inflict bind/haste. So yeah, I need to wait for more support before I can properly use Maid Ishmael in a proper team.

[✚ Paracelsus ✚]

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

She's looking to be a full poise ID, and we kinda got a lot of those around already what's with pequod, KK, and BL crew around. Low priority unless number is really good.

Or actually, if we count the Shi squad probably could've create a second poise team at this point. But I already got enough teams to cycle for maximum starlight bonus, so again low priority.

Lack of bleed is a pretty harsh blow to her viability in MDH, but with Nebulizer++ I would assume she'd be able to pump out AoEs on turn 1, which in turn means turn 2 is an easy S.Y.N.C double kill. Also means that your entire party is benefiting from +2 flat power up if you pick up the Sunshower E.G.O gift. She's looking to be a great addition to poise clear times. It feels more accurate to say that someone else is getting the boot onto the "We Have Poise At Home" team.

Her support passive is really good even if you don't intend to use her actively - a lot of poise IDs struggle with count outside of MD, and Ryoshu didn't really have a good poise support passive until now. Haste and poise count is pretty much tailor made to jack up Cinqlaire's effectiveness even higher or even salvage cinqdon.

Also allows Captain Ishmael to reliably go first and snag up kills before others can, and it solves the captain's issue of not having enough poise support to maintain her count (thus eating up all of BLDon's value).

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

I really want to use Maid Ishmael, but I can't add her to a sinking team as I see no reason to use her over Boat Ishmael which is absolutely broken ID.
So the only other option is a bind/haste team with favor to slash damage. Luckily Maid Ryoshu is a good for this kind of idea. Unluckily theren't much good slash IDs that can take advantage of or inflict bind/haste. So yeah, I need to wait for more support before I can properly use Maid Ishmael in a proper team.

Red Eyes and Red Eyes - Open?

[Joshua Kurayami]

Originally posted by A5G_Reaper:

She's looking to be a full poise ID, and we kinda got a lot of those around already what's with pequod, KK, and BL crew around. Low priority unless number is really good.

Or actually, if we count the Shi squad probably could've create a second poise team at this point. But I already got enough teams to cycle for maximum starlight bonus, so again low priority.

You forgot Cinq, which puts Chief Ryoshu in the same position as them considering they are both speed and poise based.

[SpearOfLies]

Originally posted by squidchips:

Red Eyes and Red Eyes - Open?

They are EGOs. You need 6 IDs for a team. You can go for 5 if someone really want to do it but that is not very ideal outside of boss fight. Anyway I cannot even think of a 5 team where Maid Ishmael work well instead of being a filler while waiting for better IDs. And this is not because her kit is bad. It's just there isn't enough support for the team she want to be in.

[✚ Paracelsus ✚]

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

Originally posted by squidchips:

Red Eyes and Red Eyes - Open?

They are EGOs. You need 6 IDs for a team. You can go for 5 if someone really want to do it but that is not very ideal outside of boss fight. Anyway I cannot even think of a 5 team where Maid Ishmael work well instead of being a filler while waiting for better IDs. And this is not because her kit is bad. It's just there isn't enough support for the team she want to be in.

I'm aware that they're EGOs, I'm just pointing out that said EGOs massively benefit from Bind. As for IDs, the Cinq team comes to mind, including Cinq don because while she doesn't have speed conditionals, her passive is a +30% damage increase if the whole party is faster than the enemy team, which with consistent bind is effectively "always".

Bind actively contributes towards the other two Cinq ID's conditionals since they're not based on haste, they're based on speed difference. Bind in general is maybe the second best non-sin status effect behind Fragile, so the new Ishmael will be consistently good outside of the sinking team (where she's outclassed by Molar).

As for the sixth sinner? Probably Hook Lu for his extra effects on speed difference. But if you wanted to go full speed demon meme, you could take BL Sang for Crow's Eye View.

[Joshua Kurayami]

Originally posted by squidchips:

As for the sixth sinner? Probably Hook Lu for his extra effects on speed difference. But if you wanted to go full speed demon meme, you could take BL Sang for Crow's Eye View.

If you're doing MD you can pick a charge unit with 'Employee Card' gift ego to give everyone charge and 'Curriculum Vitae' to give everyone haste. Also 'Wrist Guard' for damage up.

[SpearOfLies]

Originally posted by squidchips:

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

They are EGOs. You need 6 IDs for a team. You can go for 5 if someone really want to do it but that is not very ideal outside of boss fight. Anyway I cannot even think of a 5 team where Maid Ishmael work well instead of being a filler while waiting for better IDs. And this is not because her kit is bad. It's just there isn't enough support for the team she want to be in.

I'm aware that they're EGOs, I'm just pointing out that said EGOs massively benefit from Bind. As for IDs, the Cinq team comes to mind, including Cinq don because while she doesn't have speed conditionals, her passive is a +30% damage increase if the whole party is faster than the enemy team, which with consistent bind is effectively "always".

Bind actively contributes towards the other two Cinq ID's conditionals since they're not based on haste, they're based on speed difference. Bind in general is maybe the second best non-sin status effect behind Fragile, so the new Ishmael will be consistently good outside of the sinking team (where she's outclassed by Molar).

As for the sixth sinner? Probably Hook Lu for his extra effects on speed difference. But if you wanted to go full speed demon meme, you could take BL Sang for Crow's Eye View.

Let's start with addressing the most obvious part. She is not consistent with bind. She need to crit to do half of her bind. Criting outside of BL team is far from consistent. Her strength is her sin color.

You are suggesting good IDs but you are missing the fact just having something that look good together doesn't mean that it will work well together. How are you going to feed crow's eye view when your only sloth gen is Ishmael? How are you going to abuse red eyes when your only envy generation is BL Yi Sang skill 3? Oh right, you suggest Hook Lu which mean we have no envy generation for red eyes. Ego wtih massive benefit but you cannot even use them. That is far from an ideal team. It's a team that really struggle to generate resources for a good Ego.

[star platinum]

Just use 4 BL (Mersault, Don, Yi Sang and Faust) and use Cinq Sinclair and Maid Ryoshu as the last 2 characters.

[Big Mistake]

Been tinkering with a lust resonance comp to take advantage of N Faust + Lil Bro Meursault's support passive for those fights where getting out of the sanity pit is hard. Will almost certainly slot Butler Ryo into that comp. She will also replace Chef Ryo in my haste comp.

Whether I use Ryo elsewhere is gonna heavily depend on her numbers and Butler's Mark effects. Until then too much is up in the air to say.

[SmallGespenst]

To start with, a lack of a stated cap does not mean that the effect won't be capped (see: Pequad Yi Sang and Liu Rodia for two examples). Assuming that she's going to have gigantic maximum bonuses is setting yourself up for disappointment.
Secondly, basing your assumptions on ideal EGO gifts is pigeonholing your theories to screen-shot damage; a niche that means nothing.
Thirdly, without status effects to synergize (poise doesn't count, it's 100% personal) with other IDs she's left as a pure beat-stick, so the question is "does she make a better beatstick than WRyoshu?" and that's an extremely high bar to clear. Maybe her potential S2 Attack Weight will help, but eating Poise Count is likely to get stacks depleted, especially since poise stacks have a bad habit of self-destructing.
Maybe she could have a place in a high-speed Cinq team? it's frankly hard to see much of a niche without her numbers to see how she stacks up, I'm not really going to get excited over yet another DPS ID on the DPS IDs Sinner.

[SmallGespenst]

Both of tham are going to need to be something really special to stand out since they've got stiff competition to even be a pick on that Sinner, Ryoshu already has "arguably the best DPS ID in the game" so another DPS ID needs to (at least in specific team-comps) outperform W-Ryoshu to be relevant.
Meanwhile Reindeer and Molar Ish are both solid options for Sinking comps, so another sinking ID has to carve out a solid niche to exist, which is long odds when we're talking about a 2*.

[✚ Paracelsus ✚]

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

Let's start with addressing the most obvious part. She is not consistent with bind. She need to crit to do half of her bind. Criting outside of BL team is far from consistent. Her strength is her sin color.

We don't know her poise generation yet, but recent poise-centric IDs have been fully capable of consistently critting and ramping poise even without MD gifts. MD however makes up most of the game's content cycle, so it's silly to not be thinking of Nebulizer while discussing the viability of a new poise ID. Nobody actually believes or is implying that le funny speed team with red eyes is gonna be the new RR meta, sorry to break it to you.

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

You are suggesting good IDs but you are missing the fact just having something that look good together doesn't mean that it will work well together. How are you going to feed crow's eye view when your only sloth gen is Ishmael?

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

How are you going to abuse red eyes when your only envy generation is BL Yi Sang skill 3?

I specifically stated that taking BL Yi for Crow's Eye was a meme for making the team go faster. I never implied it'd be consistent or even effective. Very obviously you'd use another envy-centric poise identity to fuel red eyes, like Pequod Yi Sang. While your point is mostly valid regarding Red Eyes (Open), Red Eyes normal only requires one envy (two on corrode) and is the actual mainstay in this team - two plus coin drop is extremely powerful and is the main reason why N Heath is "pretty decent, actually" tier. Now do that but on 3 targets or abno parts.

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

Oh right, you suggest Hook Lu which mean we have no envy generation for red eyes.

You asked for IDs that'd work with the idea of the bind-based team, I gave them to you. Not everything you slot into a team will be able to be fully utilised even if most parts of the team theoretically work well together as a result of the 6 sinner limit and inability to control sin spread.

Ishmael's bind should be consistent enough to guarantee max conditionals from cinq, Ryoshu and, if you're bringing him (you shouldn't, i literally just threw him out there because he has speed conditionals for the "theme" team but this team doesn't synergize with bleed in the slightest which is actually the thing you should have called me out on) Hook Office Hong Lu, at the obvious cost of no red eyes coin drop.

Substituting Hook out for an envy generator (preferably poise or bind-focused) allows you to consistently use RE for what essentially amounts to a more expensive yet more effective Chains of Others that is also 3 atkweight. 2 plus coin drop on an enemy using 3 coins is effectively 6 power down without simultaneously nerfing Ryoshu.

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

To start with, a lack of a stated cap does not mean that the effect won't be capped

This is an extremely valid point and I stand corrected on that, thank you.

[SpearOfLies]

Originally posted by squidchips:

We don't know her poise generation yet, but recent poise-centric IDs have been fully capable of consistently critting and ramping poise even without MD gifts. MD however makes up most of the game's content cycle, so it's silly to not be thinking of Nebulizer while discussing the viability of a new poise ID. Nobody actually believes or is implying that le funny speed team with red eyes is gonna be the new RR meta, sorry to break it to you.

If we are going to assume that the team need ego gift to work, that is already a sign of a team that is not good as everything can work in MD. I just need a team that can work in story mode to get ex and beat RR on a reasonable pace. I'm not asking for meta defining team that can speedrun MD and RR.

Originally posted by squidchips:

I specifically stated that taking BL Yi for Crow's Eye was a meme for making the team go faster. I never implied it'd be consistent or even effective. Very obviously you'd use another envy-centric poise identity to fuel red eyes, like Pequod Yi Sang. While your point is mostly valid regarding Red Eyes (Open), Red Eyes normal only requires one envy (two on corrode) and is the actual mainstay in this team - two plus coin drop is extremely powerful and is the main reason why N Heath is "pretty decent, actually" tier. Now do that but on 3 targets or abno parts.

I like how you reduce Crow's Eye View as meme while expecting to inflict 2 plus coin drop aoe while the team you suggest just have slightly above the amount of bind on one target to trigger the effect. What are you going to do? Spam Red Eyes so it self sustain? How that is less of a meme than making Crow's Eye View work?

Originally posted by squidchips:

You asked for IDs that'd work with the idea of the bind-based team, I gave them to you. Not everything you slot into a team will be able to be fully utilised even if most parts of the team theoretically work well together as a result of the 6 sinner limit and inability to control sin spread.

Ishmael's bind should be consistent enough to guarantee max conditionals from cinq, Ryoshu and, if you're bringing him (you shouldn't, i literally just threw him out there because he has speed conditionals for the "theme" team but this team doesn't synergize with bleed in the slightest which is actually the thing you should have called me out on) Hook Office Hong Lu, at the obvious cost of no red eyes coin drop.

Substituting Hook out for an envy generator (preferably poise or bind-focused) allows you to consistently use RE for what essentially amounts to a more expensive yet more effective Chains of Others that is also 3 atkweight. 2 plus coin drop on an enemy using 3 coins is effectively 6 power down without simultaneously nerfing Ryoshu.

I think this a PM fan can't read moment. I specifically asked for SLASH IDs that can take advantage of bind/haste for Maid Ishmael.

Also what is supposed to be the "theme" of your team? Speedy team or Red Eyes(teth) team? Because you are making something is highly not effective for both.

Here a more effective Red Eyes(teth) team: W YiSang, Chef Ryoshu, W Sault, TT Hong Lu, Maid Ishmael and Molar Outis.
This team can efficiently feed Crow's Eye View, Chains of others and Red Eyes(Teth).
W Yi Sang, Chef Ryoshu and assuming that Main Ishmael inflict only 1 bind(aka worse case scenario), you have enough bind wihout using EGOs to trigger the coins drop from RE(teth).
Crow's Eye View uptie 4+Chef Ryoshu S2 is a guaranteed RE(teth) .
Chains of Others is a guaranteed RE(teth).
If you want 2 coins drop with atk weight 3 dream, you can use also add Snagharpoon to get your max value RE(teth). I will not say this is consistent as while you are trying to fuel the other more important EGOs, you are less likely to produce wrath despite the team can produce a decent amount.

W Corp Sang gain haste from his passive making him the one of fastest ID in the team. Chef, TT and Molar not having haste make them able to take advantage of -2 attack power from Crow's Eye View.

Chef fuel better the EGOs we want to fuel, she still inflict bind on skill 2 and she doesn't have any problem on using EGO instead of her own skills.

W Corp Sault is better for Regret Sault. It give you 1 pride + the pride you produce with chains of other to use Regret. If you don't have Regret Sault, R Corp Sault is a better option.

TT give the gluttony that W Yi Sang really want. Lust and envy is also very welcome. You can technically use Cinq Clair instead but envy production may run too thin. If you feel comfortable, it's technically way better as you can use TT support passive instead which is massive for the team.

Molar Outis is amazing for producing Lust and Sloth. We can argue G Corp fit the haste idea better but this team doesn't gain much out of it when bind already does most of heavy lifting for speed control.

As far speedy team, you have two options:
- Pride resonance and get absolute body by the struggle of lack of EGOs options.
- G Corp Outis+Crow's Eye View where you want to get Sloth res 2 every single turn.
I'm tired of explaining every single little details so I will just post something cooked on the moment: Molar Yi Sang, Regret Faust, Maid Ryoshu, Dieci Rodion, Cinq Clair, G Corp Outis. It should be enough sloth and wrath to spam Crow's Eye.
I choose Molar Yi Sang for the extra wrath for more crow's eye but you can pick W Yi sang for faster ID for guaranteed G Corp Outis skill 2 1 attack power up and 2 damage up on Regret Faust or Dieci Rodya for massive damage.

[SmallGespenst]

Originally posted by SpearOfLies:

Originally posted by squidchips:

We don't know her poise generation yet, but recent poise-centric IDs have been fully capable of consistently critting and ramping poise even without MD gifts. MD however makes up most of the game's content cycle, so it's silly to not be thinking of Nebulizer while discussing the viability of a new poise ID. Nobody actually believes or is implying that le funny speed team with red eyes is gonna be the new RR meta, sorry to break it to you.

If we are going to assume that the team need ego gift to work, that is already a sign of a team that is not good as everything can work in MD. I just need a team that can work in story mode to get ex and beat RR on a reasonable pace. I'm not asking for meta defining team that can speedrun MD and RR.

This is an important think to keep in mind, when you can bootleg a poise team with zero poise generation thanks to EGO gifts, saying that an ID is a decent poise generator with the right Gifts means nothing 'cause having a single Pride skill clears that bar.
The thing about Gifts is that they don't have a place in viability discussions because Cinq Don isn't a poise ID and has zero Poise generation, but would be a perfectly viable as a Poise user with Nebulizer and the Clover.