yet another nerf thread lol

[✚ Nachiroux ✚]

...PM should really just wait a week or two for the content to settle in and for people to give actual feedback instead of "I didn't win first attempt, game is rigged". They always seem to listen to kneejerk reactions posted in the first few hours while people are still figuring out bosses, causing story content that is usually juuuust challenging enough to feel like a struggle with mediocre teams and thus more impactful when you win to instead become absolute snoozefests that you can winrate through with base IDs.

They butchered Aida when all they needed to do was remove 2 (deux) slots from her party, they butchered Pequod Trio and Gasharpoon when the only offender was Gasharpoon phase 3's counter nuking people even with Sloth/pierce resist, they absolutely OBLITERATED any threat from pretty much all of the Canto 6 bosses and we're trending towards it only getting worse.

And, cold take, a lot of complaints are born from extremely bad habits formed mostly from railway and people watching others play railway. "The first turn didn't go optimally for me, so I'm going to restart", "I lost a single sinner so I'm going to restart". Yeah, 0SP gameplay is arguably one of the weakest parts of Limbus, but come on, you didn't hear no bell.

And oh my stars, Distortcliff. He's probably the worst offender for the nerfs. Yeah, he needed some tuning because his early turns were a bit rough, but a LOOOOOT of the complaints were "I clashed a bunch with him and now he's outclashing me all the time?!?!?" because we're six cantos in and people still don't read the passives or grasp that health is an expendable resource. Expend it. Take some one sided attacks. Use a tank if you have to. One side the boss back if you can't win that clash.

It's kind of miserable that the only times a boss is actually difficult is for a short few hour period right after release and in railway, after all the story hype and buildup has already worn off. My clear team for the canto was tremor with Molar Sinclair and Sloshing Ishmael because I wanted to give tremor a spin and I find their animations funny. If that dogass team can do it, why can't yours?

EDIT: https://imgur.com/a/DNA03DB

[【Silver】]

Is Distortcliff 6-35's boss? Did they change anything else outside of cutting off a point of base power on some of his skills? I couldn't really tell a difference outside of that pre vs post nerf.

[✚ Nachiroux ✚]

Originally posted by 【Silver】:

Is Distortcliff 6-35's boss? Did they change anything else outside of cutting off a point of base power on some of his skills? I couldn't really tell a difference outside of that pre vs post nerf.

Yeah, 6-35 is distortcliff. Skill potencies were lowered, even if it's by like 2 power that's still a considerable deal since bosses are balanced around average clash values for IDs and the main gimmick of the fight was the balancing act between winning clashes (so you don't get nuked) and NOT clashing or even losing some clashes on purpose (ie suncliff skill1) since capping Chaotic Hunt was generally a bad idea because Base Power is also functionally a damage increase on top of making clashes harder. It became far easier to faceroll the fight as a result, and I'm 99.9% sure some skill effects (mostly Base Power gain related) were also removed.

[Birp]

The nerfs are fair... well, 6-48 nerfs were very overkill, but I can accept them.

Don't get me wrong I would personally keep the fights unnerfed, but a large portion of the playerbase are casual andys who can't change up their strategies at all or who have a shallow understanding of the game's mechanics - even though we are already in canto 6.

And these players don't want to struggle; they don't even want to "play" the game. To them gameplay means effortlessly dominating piss-weak enemies or its a wall preventing them from enjoying the story.

If this was Library of Ruina, I would just tell them to git gud because you can play at your own pace there and you have infinite tools/resources available to you, but this is Limbus Company.

So I think its fine to keep story at a moderate difficulty so as to not gatekeep them for enjoying the story. Story can be easy-mid diff. MDH or RR should be hard.

----

Also, most of the Canto 6 nerfs were fairly minor, so the fights can still be challenging if you make them so.

[DoT]

One of my issues is that some people will say "why not just wait for the railway to fight them, they will most likely be pre-nerf there, just like with the pequod trio"

The railway battle: Spam a ton of ego because you have so many resources and win with a brain-dead mindset equal to win-rate spam in the story difficulty after the nerfs.

Not to mention you can't prevent your passives from activating with so many ego resources either, on top of starting at 45 sp.

[DoT]

Originally posted by Birp:

So I think its fine to keep story at a moderate difficulty so as to not gatekeep them for enjoying the story. Story can be easy-mid diff. MDH or RR should be hard.

The moderate difficulty in question : Deciding whether to go Win rate or Damage.

[Caxapok]

Originally posted by First to Die:

The moderate difficulty in question : Deciding whether to go Win rate or Damage.

Damage? Nah, its too hard, just only win rate...

[✚ Nachiroux ✚]

Originally posted by Birp:

Don't get me wrong I would personally keep the fights unnerfed, but a large portion of the playerbase are casual andys who can't change up their strategies at all or who have a shallow understanding of the game's mechanics - even though we are already in canto 6.

That's so true that it's not even funny. Most people I know didn't even know that winning a clash vs wolfcliff gives him clash power, even though the passive is viewable by default. The ones that did didn't seem to figure out that his "skill 1" equivalents are weak as hell so you can just let him oneside them or purposefully lose clashes against them for zero downside to manage his clash scaling.

Originally posted by Birp:

And these players don't want to struggle; they don't even want to "play" the game. To them gameplay means effortlessly dominating piss-weak enemies or its a wall preventing them from enjoying the story.

Why the hell should the developers be catering to those people, then? It's not because they make the game money, because the whales are the same people with all the meta units who can winrate it even pre-nerf.

Originally posted by Birp:

If this was Library of Ruina, I would just tell them to git gud because you can play at your own pace there and you have infinite tools/resources available to you, but this is Limbus Company.

Limbus company is a far easier game than Ruina so "git gud" is actually, genuinely a valid argument. If these people hate "Bad RNG" (you have a ton of tools to mitigate rng, use them) so much they're gonna lose their minds when they find out that dice could roll between 1 and 12.

Originally posted by Birp:

So I think its fine to keep story at a moderate difficulty so as to not gatekeep them for enjoying the story. Story can be easy-mid diff. MDH or RR should be hard.

I never said gatekeep, I said wait a week first before adjusting fights. It'll give PM time to figure out the actual issues with a fight instead of "Oh ♥♥♥♥ they hate it GUT IT NOW RELEASE THE PATCH IN 4 HOURS OR I'M FLAYING YOU" accompanied by the sound of a chair being thrown. If they'd waited and carefully finetuned Ahab, maybe the only nerf we could have seen was a nerf to the counterattack, but instead they blanket-gutted the entire fight.

Originally posted by Birp:

Also, most of the Canto 6 nerfs were fairly minor, so the fights can still be challenging if you make them so.

I already stated that this isn't the case. Two or three base power down means far more skills can outclash those, reliably, with less favourable coins required, drastically increasing the snowball capability of the player to farm those clashes for SP and outscale the boss. You aren't meant to win every clash. You can see this in, again, Ahab. Most of her skills only got a one or two base or coin power reduction and yet she's become so easy that I don't think I've ever seen anyone lose to her post-nerf.

[Birp]

Well, the fact is, you can't appease everyone.

If you look at the overall sentiment on like reddit, twitter. it feels like the reception to the nerfs is fairly positive. There was a reddit post the other day with hundreds of comments with most of them being like "omg thank god for the nerfs".

https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1c2tynz/why_i_dont_really_care_about_the_nerf/

[Yumri]

Originally posted by Birp:

Don't get me wrong I would personally keep the fights unnerfed, but a large portion of the playerbase are casual andys who can't change up their strategies at all or who have a shallow understanding of the game's mechanics - even though we are already in canto 6.

And these players don't want to struggle; they don't even want to "play" the game. To them gameplay means effortlessly dominating piss-weak enemies or its a wall preventing them from enjoying the story.

This is the core issue, and you described it perfectly. Video games have degenerated over the last 2 decades to become the easy button mashing ♥♥♥♥-fests that they are now, and the average typical gamer has developed an attitude and mentality to match this change.

Taking the time to learn a fight and build a team to win (like we had to do in LoR, especially with some of the more frustrating abno fights), is now labelled as being try hard and sweaty by casuals.

And as you said, we are now in Canto 6, and yet the overwhelming majority of the players who complain about the difficulty spike don't even seem to understand basic mechanics like using one-sides to your advantage, or using 2 star ID's like Regret Faust (which you can borrow if you don't have) to provide a huge debuff and make clashing easier. But no, screw all those options, this is 2024, thinking is for nerds.

[DoT]

Originally posted by Birp:

https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1c2tynz/why_i_dont_really_care_about_the_nerf/

You could argue that the 600 people who liked it were in favor of nerfs, but the reddit has 35K users. That is an overwhelminingly large amount of players that did not engage / ignored it.

If were going by this logic, then it's safe to say majority of the playbase that is tied to the reddit of limbus does not agree with that notion

^this is obviously exaggerated and i have to point out i'm being sarcastic, but it's easy to say that this is not resourceful information.

After looking at it, it's mostly people calling the players that can easily beat it, elitists, or calling it all chance based.

When that is all you have to go off of, then you don't really have a case.

[Birp]

Originally posted by First to Die:

Originally posted by Birp:

https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1c2tynz/why_i_dont_really_care_about_the_nerf/

You could argue that the 600 people who liked it were in favor of nerfs, but the reddit has 35K users. That is an overwhelminingly large amount of players that did not engage / ignored it.

If were going by this logic, then it's safe to say majority of the playbase that is tied to the reddit of limbus does not agree with that notion

^this is obviously exaggerated and i have to point out i'm being sarcastic, but it's easy to say that this is not resourceful information.

After looking at it, it's mostly people calling the players that can easily beat it, elitists, or calling it all chance based.

When that is all you have to go off of, then you don't really have a case.

I mean there were other posts discussing the nerfs, there was one which detailed exactly what the nerfs were even, and the sentiment was similar there.

Look I would rather have the fights unnerfed but I am not daft enough to think that just because I have an easy time with these fights, everyone else does too.

Limbus just has a more casual playerbase than Library of Ruina did. The average or median Limbus player is prob worse at the game than a certain doomposter on this forum whose name begins with c.

[DoT]

Originally posted by Birp:

Look I would rather have the fights unnerfed but I am not daft enough to think that just because I have an easy time with these fights, everyone else does too.

Limbus just has a more casual playerbase than Library of Ruina did. The average or median Limbus player is prob worse at the game than a certain doomposter on this forum whose name begins with c.

You aren't doing anyone any favors by making the fights easy enough to just press win-rate.

They will get a free pass here, and then struggle and complain again next canto and so on. It's a band-aid solution.

Knowing pm, they will still nerf future cantos as well, just like they did pretty much almost every fight in ruina. However, the future fights will be toned down, less and less, to the point that win-rate will most likely actually be detrimental. but that's just a guess.

I can bet the reason this canto was nerfed so hard, wasn't because of the outcry, but because they are only halfway through the sinner cantos. It's kind of obvious that they won't simply stop at fausts canto, so it's easy to say that we aren't even halfway through the story, so this difficulty was more fit for later. However, it will reach this point and beyond during the late game.

The best thing you can do for struggling players is to give them meaningful advice for when that time inevitably comes.

I personally am, an advocate for adding a normal and hard mode, with hard mode being pre-nerfed fights. But until something like that is officially announced or incorporated, trying to guide the less experienced players is what we should be doing, rather then bank on the idea that pm will keep things at this level forever and give them participation trophies.

[TheUglyDuckling]

the people who ♥♥♥♥♥ and complain about nerfs are the same people who havet played the previous games. i honestly wouldve perferred if limbus company costed money to buy so any difficulty wouldnt be instantly nulled by the piss weak soy boys who see free games and play it expecting another stupid idle or gacha game to brain rot your way through it all

[✚ Nachiroux ✚]

never forget salvador

[Reptiloid]

Well, I guess that's the situation. You want challenging content that you've associated PM's games up until LC - you play same day after release. It's perfectly understandable that PM won't care much about it's old fans that were all into difficult content, which are just a minority now, but it's still sad. Literally 1937.