A treatise on the defensive skills

[Iggy the Unwise]

Usual suspects

Currently there is 3 different types of defense skills and they are not likely to change.

• Block – On use provides user with shields equal to the value rolled, shields act as temporary health and stay until the end of turn. All “on hit” effects on attacking skills do still trigger which means things like burn and bleed are still applied and could damage shield and health if shields are depleted. Shields do protect you from damaging status effects such as bleed and burn.
  
• Evade – On use rolls a coinflip for all coins of the attacking skill unless it loses the clash (it is not a clash from game perspective, so the clash value effects do not apply). On successful evade roll the attacking skill does not deal any damage but still gains subsequent power from coins (each head that enemy rolls does make next evade harder or impossible depending on evade base and coin power). The successful evade fully protects against any “on hit” effect. Rolling evade does not trigger the bleed effect. If evade wins against all enemy coins on an attacking skill it will be reused on all subsequent attacks that target this unit.
  
• Counter – On use will activate against the first enemy whose attack lands on the unit, then will roll as attack skill with specified damage type. Counter will not trigger if an attack staggers user. Counter does not trigger bleed on attacking. Counter damage is affected by offence level.

It should be mentioned that in focus encounters (and non-focused if the conditions align) defensive skill could be used to “clash” with defensive skill of the opponent to offset it, effectively mitigating it (Note while it does say that it offsets the counter skill IT DOES NOT, the game is lying to you)

And now to why most of the defensive skills are useless in most situations.

First, we will start with the Evade being completely neutered in non-focus encounters. Due to how clashing works in non-focus fights the evade skill will not activate unless the skill its clashing against attacks it first. It will not trigger if backrow enemy targets a sinner who used evade on other enemy, even if sinner has higher speed. Similar problem haunts all defensive skills to an extent in both focused and non-focused encounters, the game prioritizes clashing with attack skills even if defensive skill is first on the chain (although this also applies to the enemies and could be used as an advantage).

Next, block shield health is still subject to damage and sin weakness making even the monstrous looking 15 base plus 5 coin power skills a lot less effective at preventing the health loss. The fact that, at the time of writing, best ids that utilize shield gain them by the means other than blocking speaks volumes.

Counter suffers the most of the three by the simple fact that unlike two above mentioned counterparts it does not prevent health loss at all and further it could be mitigated by simply staggering the sinner who used it.

Next, we come to the problem of actually boosting the roll numbers on the skills themselves. There is a specific buff that directly boosts final power of defective skills, the problem that there is currently, at the time of writing, only 4 units that possess skills that grants it and two EGOs (One of which kills you if you get said effect, and the other targets randomly and is not guaranteed to grant it). Next thing is coin power boosts which are even rarer, only two units possess skills with condition to gain coin power. This leaves with so far, the best way to gain power of defensive skills, sin type power boosts, which brings its own set of problems in the form of absence of sin type on non-counter skills until uptie 4.

The next section could be considered subjective rambling of mad man somewhere from the Library of Ruina.

The problem with the defensive skills in limbus is that they either don’t do what they are meant to do (Counter) or do not offer almost any benefit from sometimes preventing all (Evade) or more likely some of the damage (Block).

While yes new units try to fix the problem with counter by slapping protection or with new Blade Lineage Meursault`s “this unit cannot be staggered until end of skill” this does not eliminate the problem that the unit needs to be hit to use it. In Ruina counters did clash with unopposed attack and prevented damage if won.

Evade skill are the best by technicality, since in theory you could use just one and prevent all the incoming damage, but the fact that most of them are luck defendant on low sanity or still can backfire by the funny 5% on high sanity combined with their janky ability to activate in non-focused fights still leaves a lot to desire. Yes, some of evade skill offer beneficial effects such us stagger lowering (which was default in Ruina) or charge/poise gain, but its often only the privilege of 000 identities and even then, it’s not guaranteed (W Don, Cinq Sinclair).

Block skills coming in last and are just sad, most of the benefit they provide are purely utilitarian in nature (gain charge/haste/sanity, discard skills). Once again returning to Ruina block skills did raise enemy stager (or dealt stagger damage to be precise) if enemy rolled lower that the shield value or subtracted the shield value from the roll before resistances if lost, we have yet to see such effect on any id (or any in case of Kurokumo Ryoshu and G Gregor)

What I`m trying to convey is that using sinners attack skill is almost always better if trying to mitigate damage, if roll is impossible you are better of using an EGO than defending in any situation, and that is sad. There are almost no tools to fix it currently in the game. Stacking defense level up (not to be confused with defense power up) and protection is better than any Block, Evading is a last resort if you can’t afford an EGO and Counter is only use case is speed manipulation shenanigans and dealing damage if you can’t win a clash (once again EGO could fix this problem)

Thanks for reading all that, lets collectively scream at PM to do something with defensive skill.

[Ekimmak]

N Corp Mersault's counter is actually pretty decent for Wrath Luxcavation. I want him to take a hit from the SNOWC 3 coin skill on the second turn, to give him enough talisman to have a good chance of handicapping the boss when it starts taking talismans again. And even with a blunt/lust fatal weakness, the protection it gives him is enough to keep him from being staggered.

Evade was better than S1 in RR2, because it gave you a 14 skill for fighting against the boss' swelling attack power on their weak-ish attacks. It's only ♥♥♥♥♥♥ more in demand in RR3, because a lot of fights demand you to have good evaders.

Block is "decent", but situational. If you resist the damage type, then it's the opposite of evade: rather than completely negating a weak skill, you use it to reduce a strong skill to no actual damage, or at least minimal damage. The problem is that there's a very good chance you don't resist it enough, and so end up taking damage no matter what you do.

Counter is basically a trade. You give your opponent an unopposed attack, and then get the same back on them. But so many mechanics are based on not letting the opponent land that hit, that it tends to not work out so well. I think the first time I used a counter skill effectively was RR1, using it to keep the Nothing There inquisitors from healing during their counter turns.

[Iggy the Unwise]

İlk olarak Yukks tarafından gönderildi:

For reference:
W Corp Hong Lu's shield has 33 health,
Zwei Gregor's has variable health and heavy damage reduction,
Dieci Yi Sang and Rodya have variable but good health again,
Ahabmael's guard distritubes SP,
Magic Bullet Outis' guard is underrated.
Honorable mention to K Corp Hong Lu's Guard, which cuts his effective HP down by 25% per use.

Ahabmael is on use which brings the speed and targeting shenanigans, not to mention that that is the exact problem. You are not using it to block, you use it for sanity gain. Same with Der Outis, its an ammo pouch not a shield. Deici fists gaing more shield thru disscard than their block skill. I have nothing on W Lu, its a good shiel even if its mostly by the shield barrier. K Lu is the third id wih 20 rolling guard, shame you can only use it 4 times.

İlk olarak Demonking tarafından gönderildi:

The problem is, if WE get these options they will start creating enemies that get them or better versions as well. So be careful about what you wish for. We already have Jun. Imagine how bad an enemy would be if they had what functioned at an unlimited counter that as a 10+10 dodge on top of it. You would HAVE to ego or hurt their sanity if you didn't want to lose teammates to possibly up to +40% damage counter attacks.

The problem is that we yet to have an reuse counter skill. Also did you forget Ricardo?

İlk olarak Birp tarafından gönderildi:

Disagree, defensive skills are quite useful, except for 1 coin counters and blocks weaker than 10(+5) or so.

The problem that it leaves singular cases and evade skills. Since most counters and block are in that value range

[Demonking]

Oh yeah, reuseable counters would also be kind of cool to have and a natural evolution. A least for the characters that can properly make use of them.

[Damoncles]

İlk olarak Iggy the Unwise tarafından gönderildi:

ts a good shiel even if its mostly by the shield barrier. K Lu is the third id wih 20 rolling guard, shame you can only use it 4 times.

You don't get it. You shouldn't guard with K Corp Hong Lu, not even once.
He can revive multiple times.

[SpearOfLies]

Defense skills are situational good and I'm fine with that.
Evade is currently the king of MD3H. It handle multiple coins and high offense level enemies very easily. The only think that Evade struggle is what block handle the best.
Block is the king of handling single coin high roll skills. If you have the right resistance, you can also handle multiple coins attack. A tank with blunt resistance take almost no damage from bull's 3 coins attack. If you are having trouble with bull, blame yourself for not being able to use block. He get absolute walled by block.
Counter is on a weird position. Outside of unique counters, the only reason you may want use this is: the counter have buff you really want, you want your character to take damage and some rare and unique situation where that counter attack help you a lot(example your only way to stagger the enemy to delete the other attacks).
Counter is on the weakest position but I don't want they simply make them do more damage. I'm perfectly fine with them adding more utility(gaining buff or inflicting status) to counter. Trading your hp for that should be worthy.

[Reptiloid]

İlk olarak Yukks tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Iggy the Unwise tarafından gönderildi:

ts a good shiel even if its mostly by the shield barrier. K Lu is the third id wih 20 rolling guard, shame you can only use it 4 times.

You don't get it. You shouldn't guard with K Corp Hong Lu, not even once.
He can revive multiple times.

Well, when you go solo with him it helps to have a bit of regen and the ability to stack some glut res if you fall short on it. I once made him corrode each turn with Rusty Coin to end up at NEGATIVE ego rez, I didn't knew that it was possible..

[Birp]

Using K Honglu's defend skill is fine because honestly there isn't a single fight where he needs more than 1 revive, let alone 3.

Unless you're doing RR3 masochist run with Mariachi Sinclair, Zwei Rodion, base Meursault, all the worst possible ids + K Honglu.

Then you might need 3 revives.

[K0lyan]

With the exception of the dodge skill, the other defence skills are somewhat useless.
Because: in normal dungeon sinners can easily win clashes with skills and there is no need to use defence skills.

In hard dungeon block or counter will not save them from huge damage from mobs. Only high clashes and ego will save them :D

So right now the best defence skill is good offence skill. If sinner win clash he will not lose any hp, get sanity and will deal some damage.

As for me defend skill (at least for tanks) should be remaked. Defence skill should get more hp shield (propably it should better scale with sinner's id uptie and level) and provide usefull utility for the team.

Same thing with counter skill. Most counter skill dont do significant damage. It should have some hp shield and better damage.

[Birp]

İlk olarak K0lyan tarafından gönderildi:

With the exception of the dodge skill, the other defence skills are somewhat useless.
Because: in normal dungeon sinners can easily win clashes with skills and there is no need to use defence skills.

In hard dungeon block or counter will not save them from huge damage from mobs. Only high clashes and ego will save them :D

So right now the best defence skill is good offence skill. If sinner win clash he will not lose any hp, get sanity and will deal some damage.

As for me defend skill (at least for tanks) should be remaked. Defence skill should get more hp shield (propably it should better scale with sinner's id uptie and level) and provide usefull utility for the team.

Same thing with counter skill. Most counter skill dont do significant damage. It should have some hp shield and better damage.

This is more of a flaw with how Mirror Dungeon is designed, rather than how defensive skills are designed.

[Teniente Dan]

Another reason why defensive skills are trash. Is because most of the healing content in this game is broken as well.
Most EGO and passives that heal, will only heal the sinner with less HP. Meaning that if you deploy someone with 157 max hp and a tank (like Nun Rodya) with over 200hp, you'll never get to heal her until her HP reach 156 or lower.
I had entire MD runs with characters with max 200hp at 160hp because they can't be healed with EGO gifts or by passives like chef Ryo or chef gregor.

The only reason to use defensive skills (and evade only) is to farm certain sin color in special dungeons like RRs or battles like the big bro one (were you don't need to rush turns)

[Joshua Kurayami]

İlk olarak Yukks tarafından gönderildi:

You don't get it. You shouldn't guard with K Corp Hong Lu, not even once.
He can revive multiple times.

İlk olarak Birp tarafından gönderildi:

Using K Honglu's defend skill is fine because honestly there isn't a single fight where he needs more than 1 revive, let alone 3.

Unless you're doing RR3 masochist run with Mariachi Sinclair, Zwei Rodion, base Meursault, all the worst possible ids + K Honglu.

Then you might need 3 revives.

Where are you all even getting '3 revives' from? K Hong only has one revive per battle with his passive (even though you can still die from too much damage) and Dimension Shredder has a revive for the first time you reach 0hp.

[Birp]

İlk olarak Joshua Kurayami tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Yukks tarafından gönderildi:

You don't get it. You shouldn't guard with K Corp Hong Lu, not even once.
He can revive multiple times.

İlk olarak Birp tarafından gönderildi:

Using K Honglu's defend skill is fine because honestly there isn't a single fight where he needs more than 1 revive, let alone 3.

Unless you're doing RR3 masochist run with Mariachi Sinclair, Zwei Rodion, base Meursault, all the worst possible ids + K Honglu.

Then you might need 3 revives.

Where are you all even getting '3 revives' from? K Hong only has one revive per battle with his passive (even though you can still die from too much damage) and Dimension Shredder has a revive for the first time you reach 0hp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJVs0BWzgrw&ab_channel=Koezar

He does have up to 3 revives, although I've never ♥♥♥♥♥♥ to that point myself.

It's the "gain 1 fragile every turn" part which is once-only, not with every revive.