Why Retcon Lobotomy Corporation Abno Rating?

[Cyboroso]

It would be ok to simply use a new rating because the lobotomy one is for large scale danger and wouldn't fit the sinners since they are fewer and weaker without the EGO extraction, however now they made that Lobotomy were more based on their power generation and that how dangerous the abnormality was is often a correlation of it when it was the opposite?

Not only its a unecessary retcon but it creates alot of inconsistencys in lob corp.

Why there are WAW and HE abnormality items if they produce no energy? Why is We Can Fix Everything Zayin if he can produce alot of energy?

Why does Red Mist and Arbiter have Aleph ratings if they produce no energy?

Why does white dawn and noon dawn have WAW enemies if they produce indirectly energy that are the same as the other dawn and noons.

Not to mention that the abnormalities were affected by Qlipoth Deterrence so it means that they are even more dangerous than they would be, which is something that was seen in Leviathan since Vergilius fought Schadenfreude and it waasn't a sweep despite him being a HE.

Like sure it explained that lower level abnormalities were able to kill higher lvl employees ,which were the case for alot of HEs who had insta kill mechanics but... That was explained by Lobotomy itself, that the risk levels were based on the amount of people they could kill, if they posed a threat to the whole department, or even the facility later on, instead of individual strength, which a HE for example would never be able to do so since the ones who could insta kill would only insta kill a small amount of agents, compared to WAWs that could, most of the time, affect entire departments.

[Minh]

There're contradictions no matter what.

If based on danger, Don't Touch Me shouldn't be ZAYIN.

If based on energy, Flesh Idol shouldn't be WAW.

But I think basing on energy has fewer contradictions.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

It would be ok to simply use a new rating because the lobotomy one is for large scale danger and wouldn't fit the sinners since they are fewer and weaker without the EGO extraction, however now they made that Lobotomy were more based on their power generation and that how dangerous the abnormality was is often a correlation of it when it was the opposite?

Yes.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why there are WAW and HE abnormality items if they produce no energy?

Contradiction.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why is We Can Fix Everything Zayin if he can produce alot of energy?

Contradiction.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why does Red Mist and Arbiter have Aleph ratings if they produce no energy?

They shouldn't get any ratings. They're not Abnormalities or Distortions.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why does white dawn and noon dawn have WAW enemies if they produce indirectly energy that are the same as the other dawn and noons.

Contradiction.

[Red riding hood the third]

i totally forgot that those ratings referred to the amount of deaths and not the amount of energy it produces. though it can be chalked up to Hohenheims own lack of knowledge coming to the wrong conclusion. from his perspective it could be true that higher risk levels meant more energy since that was the case for a lot of the abnormalities.

i think the new ratings fits better anyway, the employees in lobotomy corp. were amateurs in combat so scaling the danger to the amount of deaths made sense but for fixers they possess high individual strength that the risk levels doesnt apply to them.

[Red riding hood the third]

Originally posted by Minh:

If based on danger, Don't Touch Me shouldn't be ZAYIN.

dont touch me doesnt do anything if you leave it alone unlike the other abnormalities being affected by the Qliphoth meter, i would consider that one an outlier

[Cyboroso]

Originally posted by Minh:

There're contradictions no matter what.

If based on danger, Don't Touch Me shouldn't be ZAYIN.

If based on energy, Flesh Idol shouldn't be WAW.

But I think basing on energy has fewer contradictions.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

It would be ok to simply use a new rating because the lobotomy one is for large scale danger and wouldn't fit the sinners since they are fewer and weaker without the EGO extraction, however now they made that Lobotomy were more based on their power generation and that how dangerous the abnormality was is often a correlation of it when it was the opposite?

Yes.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why there are WAW and HE abnormality items if they produce no energy?

Contradiction.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why is We Can Fix Everything Zayin if he can produce alot of energy?

Contradiction.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why does Red Mist and Arbiter have Aleph ratings if they produce no energy?

They shouldn't get any ratings. They're not Abnormalities or Distortions.

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Why does white dawn and noon dawn have WAW enemies if they produce indirectly energy that are the same as the other dawn and noons.

Contradiction.

I'm not sure if Dont Touch Me would be canon considering he feels a bit of a joke of sorts, you also don't need his info to do the true ending, kinda like Bald is Awesome.

[Cyboroso]

Originally posted by Red riding hood the third:

i totally forgot that those ratings referred to the amount of deaths and not the amount of energy it produces. though it can be chalked up to Hohenheims own lack of knowledge coming to the wrong conclusion. from his perspective it could be true that higher risk levels meant more energy since that was the case for a lot of the abnormalities.

i think the new ratings fits better anyway, the employees in lobotomy corp. were amateurs in combat so scaling the danger to the amount of deaths made sense but for fixers they possess high individual strength that the risk levels doesnt apply to them.

Now that you mention yeah I think it makes sense that he came to a wrong conclusion, lol that completely went over my head.

Yeah i agree that the new ratings fit better too , my problem was just with changing how the old ratings worked.

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by Red riding hood the third:

i totally forgot that those ratings referred to the amount of deaths and not the amount of energy it produces. though it can be chalked up to Hohenheims own lack of knowledge coming to the wrong conclusion. from his perspective it could be true that higher risk levels meant more energy since that was the case for a lot of the abnormalities.

i think the new ratings fits better anyway, the employees in lobotomy corp. were amateurs in combat so scaling the danger to the amount of deaths made sense but for fixers they possess high individual strength that the risk levels doesnt apply to them.

I disagree here. The employees at Lobotomy Corporation were explicitly so strong as to be considered inhuman. CLERKS were regular people, and their pistols could do 1 to 2 red damage per shot. The basic riot stick does around 3x that per swing when wielded by an Agent. Granted they weren't like, Atelier crafted pistols, but they're still enough to easily kill a normal person in 1 shot (as seen when they're used for their actual intended purpose)

A maxed out Agent could be considered an equivalent to a Color in terms of strength. I mean hell, Nothing There's Goodbye attack is equivalent to a more dangerous version of Gebura's Greater Split: Horizontal, and a kitted out Agent could SURVIVE that. Of course, this is partially due to the quality of EGO equipment, but DD showed that if you aren't able to handle the equipment through your own virtues, you start to corrode into the equipment.

Abnormalities in Lobotomy Corporation were classified by how much damage they could do to the facility and outside world. (before being suppressed). Hence why objects had classification levels. If some of them got to the outside world or are misused, they could cause a lot of issues.

The current classification ratings might've needed to be adjusted just because of QD, but otherwise, it was a decent system. It just didn't specifically measure how effective an abnormality or distortion would be IN COMBAT.

[Angela Gaming]

because lobcorp was made by a bunch of college graduates who never made such a serious thing and were just winging it, so of course they didnt really plan ahead as they didnt expect there to Be an ahead
in other words the lobcorp risk levels were always just sorta flimsy and not meant to be thought about much untill they had to give a proper meaning to them in future games

[Cyboroso]

Originally posted by Angela Gaming:

because lobcorp was made by a bunch of college graduates who never made such a serious thing and were just winging it, so of course they didnt really plan ahead as they didnt expect there to Be an ahead
in other words the lobcorp risk levels were always just sorta flimsy and not meant to be thought about much untill they had to give a proper meaning to them in future games

That's just disrespecting the game, the game took itself quite seriously specially the lore and many events there were referenced in the other games same way as before, specially LoR and limbus too.

The risk levels being based on how dangerous the abnormalities were and how many people they could kill and affect the facility was accurate enough for all of them, and didn't cause the so many contradictions that "power generation levels" creates.

[Zeru]

Except that energy generation is fairly consistent. Go to Lobotomy Corporation wiki and sort Abnormalities by energy production. Ignoring tools, it will mostly match the grades. It's not a mathematics theorem, a handful of counter-examples do not undermine the general rule.

full list of outliers:
- Standard Training-Dummy Rabbit (tutorial)
- Apocalypse Bird (datamined, cannot be worked normally)
- Army in Black

out of the entire list of non-tool abnormalities

edit: right.. Don't Touch me is also non-tool, another exception due to being impossible to complete work

[Cyboroso]

Originally posted by Zeru:

Except that energy generation is fairly consistent. Go to Lobotomy Corporation wiki and sort Abnormalities by energy production. Ignoring tools, it will mostly match the grades. It's not a mathematics theorem, a handful of counter-examples do not undermine the general rule.

full list of outliers:
- Standard Training-Dummy Rabbit (tutorial)
- Apocalypse Bird (datamined, cannot be worked normally)
- Army in Black

out of the entire list of non-tool abnormalities

edit: right.. Don't Touch me is also non-tool, another exception due to being impossible to complete work

I already mentioned the abnormalities that are incosistent against it, specially the Ordeals, White Dawn and Noon give same energy as their other color counterparts despite being WAWs. And ruling out Tool abnos basically means that their risk levels means nothing considering they dont produce energy. Then theres We can Fix Everything who produces energy. Alot. More than Zayin.

While if its based on how many people the Abno can kill, none of these contradictions occur, It doesn't ignore the tool abnos ,it doesn't conflict with the ordeals and doesn't conflict with the normal abnos because most of them are consistent with their danger based on their risk.

[lorde]

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Originally posted by Angela Gaming:

because lobcorp was made by a bunch of college graduates who never made such a serious thing and were just winging it, so of course they didnt really plan ahead as they didnt expect there to Be an ahead
in other words the lobcorp risk levels were always just sorta flimsy and not meant to be thought about much untill they had to give a proper meaning to them in future games

That's just disrespecting the game, the game took itself quite seriously specially the lore and many events there were referenced in the other games same way as before, specially LoR and limbus too.

The risk levels being based on how dangerous the abnormalities were and how many people they could kill and affect the facility was accurate enough for all of them, and didn't cause the so many contradictions that "power generation levels" creates.

You're completely misunderstanding what he just said. In no way is the truth 'disrespectful'. They obviously had no plans for this far in the future, so they didn't think to make LOB less difficult to trip over in the future. The game may have taken itself 'quite seriously', but why would you even mention that LOR and LIMBUS took itself seriously if they aren't even apart of the same context and time frame of Lobotomy Corp being made without future plans? LOR and LOB are not apart of this argument because they are not what's being retconned here, so pointless to even say such things.

Your message is a mess and I don't see how 'many events' and 'references' relate at all to a game being made at a time where future recalls of itself were in mind. None of what you said in any way defends how much retconning and contradiction PM has utilized, so please do not act like it does. PM is not a writing-supergenius where they will write a thousand years ahead -- I'm very sick of this rhetoric and it's beginning to get to the point where PM and One Piece fans are the same thing.

[Cyboroso]

Originally posted by FluentBellMaker:

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

That's just disrespecting the game, the game took itself quite seriously specially the lore and many events there were referenced in the other games same way as before, specially LoR and limbus too.

The risk levels being based on how dangerous the abnormalities were and how many people they could kill and affect the facility was accurate enough for all of them, and didn't cause the so many contradictions that "power generation levels" creates.

You're completely misunderstanding what he just said. In no way is the truth 'disrespectful'. They obviously had no plans for this far in the future, so they didn't think to make LOB less difficult to trip over in the future. The game may have taken itself 'quite seriously', but why would you even mention that LOR and LIMBUS took itself seriously if they aren't even apart of the same context and time frame of Lobotomy Corp being made without future plans? LOR and LOB are not apart of this argument because they are not what's being retconned here, so pointless to even say such things.

Your message is a mess and I don't see how 'many events' and 'references' relate at all to a game being made at a time where future recalls of itself were in mind. None of what you said in any way defends how much retconning and contradiction PM has utilized, so please do not act like it does. PM is not a writing-supergenius where they will write a thousand years ahead -- I'm very sick of this rhetoric and it's beginning to get to the point where PM and One Piece fans are the same thing.

Ahh, of course the person that is gonna assume everything based on one message, didn't even say that they planned ahead of times and you jumped instantly to conclusions, no surprise considering how you jumped into this discussion.

You are missing the point, just because they didn't exactly plan ahead does not mean that what they had in lobotomy could not be used for future works. The entire LoR , who was the game that they made with all the budget they needed, along with much more planning involve since it was a early access game so they could change it however they wanted based on the game feedback, story element included. If Lobotomy was really that mess that they couldn't work for future stories then why did they use so much of it for LoR? Who had much more planning ,budget and wasn't same scenario as the previous game? Even the risk levels were kept the same for LoR , and all the events from Lobotomy were mentioned again in it ,unchaged, only on the perspective of Angela were kept and appeared on it.

Also how exactly LOB is not apart of this arguement since its exactly what was retconned? Their risk levels?

This whole idea of "They were much smaller and didn't know what they were doing" to explain a retcon is a really bad arguement specially considering how many years it was kept the same, many games start small with not alot of planning ahead and still keep the same elements of the old story to work for their future works, and most of the time when they change they do a reboot rather than continue it.

Please don't give me a whole paragraph of assumptions of something you completely missed and deviate the whole discussion.

[Red riding hood the third]

Originally posted by Terratrox:

Originally posted by Red riding hood the third:

i totally forgot that those ratings referred to the amount of deaths and not the amount of energy it produces. though it can be chalked up to Hohenheims own lack of knowledge coming to the wrong conclusion. from his perspective it could be true that higher risk levels meant more energy since that was the case for a lot of the abnormalities.

i think the new ratings fits better anyway, the employees in lobotomy corp. were amateurs in combat so scaling the danger to the amount of deaths made sense but for fixers they possess high individual strength that the risk levels doesnt apply to them.

I disagree here. The employees at Lobotomy Corporation were explicitly so strong as to be considered inhuman. CLERKS were regular people, and their pistols could do 1 to 2 red damage per shot. The basic riot stick does around 3x that per swing when wielded by an Agent. Granted they weren't like, Atelier crafted pistols, but they're still enough to easily kill a normal person in 1 shot (as seen when they're used for their actual intended purpose)

A maxed out Agent could be considered an equivalent to a Color in terms of strength. I mean hell, Nothing There's Goodbye attack is equivalent to a more dangerous version of Gebura's Greater Split: Horizontal, and a kitted out Agent could SURVIVE that. Of course, this is partially due to the quality of EGO equipment, but DD showed that if you aren't able to handle the equipment through your own virtues, you start to corrode into the equipment.

Abnormalities in Lobotomy Corporation were classified by how much damage they could do to the facility and outside world. (before being suppressed). Hence why objects had classification levels. If some of them got to the outside world or are misused, they could cause a lot of issues.

The current classification ratings might've needed to be adjusted just because of QD, but otherwise, it was a decent system. It just didn't specifically measure how effective an abnormality or distortion would be IN COMBAT.

i called them amateurs in combat because Binah's the one saying it and that the majority of employees cant control ego gear to begin with. i also doubt maxed out agents existed in the other branches, the ones in our playthrough are going through thousands of loops and are upgraded using lob points making them indeed inhuman but all of their combat ability is still solely reliant on the quality of the ego gear.

[Eight♥Six]

Most of the people who knew the old ratings are most likely dead. The history of L corp is most probably lost
and now a new history is in production
A broke the cycle after all.

I do get what you're saying it is somewhat of a retcon, but given the fact 99.9% of the population knew nothing about L corp I can personally let something like this slide.

[Minh]

Originally posted by Red riding hood the third:

Originally posted by Minh:

If based on danger, Don't Touch Me shouldn't be ZAYIN.

dont touch me doesnt do anything if you leave it alone unlike the other abnormalities being affected by the Qliphoth meter, i would consider that one an outlier

Originally posted by Cyboroso:

Originally posted by Minh:

There're contradictions no matter what.

If based on danger, Don't Touch Me shouldn't be ZAYIN.

If based on energy, Flesh Idol shouldn't be WAW.

But I think basing on energy has fewer contradictions.

Yes.

Contradiction.

Contradiction.

They shouldn't get any ratings. They're not Abnormalities or Distortions.

Contradiction.

I'm not sure if Dont Touch Me would be canon considering he feels a bit of a joke of sorts, you also don't need his info to do the true ending, kinda like Bald is Awesome.

If Don't Touch Me doesn't count, maybe Army in Pink counts.