PM's Band-aid solution.

[DoT]

Majority of the players agreed that taking less damage from unbreakable coins after winning the clash is the most fair balance change due to the results.

So what does pm do?

Instead of simply doing just that and making it so unbreakable coins deal less damage by default. Which would solve majority of the issues, They only changed the singular boss with by adding the effects of gaining power down and paralysis on clash lose.

What a lazy bum way to nerf the fight.

We're going to get future bosses that do absurd damage on cracked unbreakable coins over and over in the future. People are going to complain. And it's just going to be the same thing over and over. It's actually so stupid. As if they learned nothing from talisman sinclair.

[Sham!]

Eh idk, nerfing red coins across the board means nerfing a good bunch of ids too at this point
Plus some enemies using them are a total nonissue, nice red coins Gubo, get wedgied now

[Yerc2]

Within the past week(?), they had an announcement saying that red coins are more-so meant to display animations rather than increase the difficulty.
I don't see how they could make such an announcement and then release a boss with red coins that they think deserves to be nerfed.

At least the potential exists for them to give bosses weaker red coins on release. Whereas a nerf to red coins across the board would make earlier content easier as well.

[H11DN-D4NG3R]

I do like 1 of the with unbreakables is that it says it sets coins to 1......Xcept any increase in Coin power(through conditional/buffs) still gets added, basically nullifying the entire unbreakable break mechanic,

In all honestly they should make it that broken unbreakable coins are set to 0 as a base, or make it so Broken unbreakables Dont get affected by coin boosts(or any buffs/conditionals). with would probly solve Alot of issues.

[ClassyD]

The red coins don't need nerfing. No fight has been made unwinnable from red coins. They do need to start analyzing what kind of toolkits are necessary to better handle them and start releasing EGO's and ID's with that in mind. Multi-coin Dodges, more Clashable Blocks (does the block proc for the unbreakable attack? if not they should change that), and more debuffs/status effects to punish flipping coins. Ishmael's Roseate Desire EGO is a good example of the sort of thing we should see coming out the pipeline now if PM wants to keep upping the ante with unbreakable coins.

I'm willing to appreciate the fact that the Bloodfiend team does a good job at handling unbreakable coins with its shields, thorn damage, regen, and obviously bleed, but the answer to red coins can't just be "bust out the bloodfiends" forever.

[Pestilancer]

Originally posted by Yerc2:

Within the past week(?), they had an announcement saying that red coins are more-so meant to display animations rather than increase the difficulty.
I don't see how they could make such an announcement and then release a boss with red coins that they think deserves to be nerfed.

At least the potential exists for them to give bosses weaker red coins on release. Whereas a nerf to red coins across the board would make earlier content easier as well.

That comment was only relevant to the Jia Qiu fight in particular, not unbreakable coins as a whole.
"However, I realized that the behavior of Unbreakable Coins in Canto 8 - <Part 2> was solely focused on
raising the game difficulty, as opposed to giving a more visually entertaining experience. Therefore, we intend to alleviate this issue.

We will be using these Unbreakable Coins to prioritize "showing off the enemy animations", as that was our initial design intent."

Key word "these unbreakable coins" not "unbreakable coins" or "unbreakable coins in general."

[Minh]

Originally posted by DoT:

So what does pm do?

Weaken him.

[Minh]

Originally posted by Yerc2:

Within the past week(?), they had an announcement saying that red coins are more-so meant to display animations rather than increase the difficulty.
I don't see how they could make such an announcement and then release a boss with red coins that they think deserves to be nerfed.

At least the potential exists for them to give bosses weaker red coins on release. Whereas a nerf to red coins across the board would make earlier content easier as well.

Yes.

[Minh]

Originally posted by ClassyD:

The red coins don't need nerfing. No fight has been made unwinnable from red coins. They do need to start analyzing what kind of toolkits are necessary to better handle them and start releasing EGO's and ID's with that in mind. Multi-coin Dodges, more Clashable Blocks (does the block proc for the unbreakable attack? if not they should change that), and more debuffs/status effects to punish flipping coins. Ishmael's Roseate Desire EGO is a good example of the sort of thing we should see coming out the pipeline now if PM wants to keep upping the ante with unbreakable coins.

I'm willing to appreciate the fact that the Bloodfiend team does a good job at handling unbreakable coins with its shields, thorn damage, regen, and obviously bleed, but the answer to red coins can't just be "bust out the bloodfiends" forever.

Yes.

[井芹仁菜不吃香菜]

"I consider the current adjustments acceptable. If damage values were simply reduced, this boss would lose all challenge — we'd only need to field 12 characters and auto-battle (P key) for a guaranteed win.

Regarding the current solution:

After losing a clash against Unbreakable Coins, the enemy gains Power Down and Paralysis, indirectly reducing player damage intake.

This forces players to develop counter-strategies (e.g., preemptively using Guard on high-risk coins), adding strategic depth.

Concerning the 6-coin AoE skill:

This mechanic can be mitigated simply by using the Guard command, proving it's not an insurmountable threat.

The core frustration stems from:

The excessively harsh penalty of near-wipe scenarios if the AoE skill isn't perfectly handled.

Proposed improvement: Implement reduced damage for secondary targets (e.g., 50% less damage for non-primary targets) to prevent single-turn mistakes from triggering snowballing disadvantage."

[DoT]

Originally posted by Yerc2:

Within the past week(?), they had an announcement saying that red coins are more-so meant to display animations rather than increase the difficulty.
I don't see how they could make such an announcement and then release a boss with red coins that they think deserves to be nerfed.

At least the potential exists for them to give bosses weaker red coins on release. Whereas a nerf to red coins across the board would make earlier content easier as well.

When unbreakable coins first released we also got 12 sinners. And they were talking about how they wanted players to feel comfortable with character deaths.

So while they did say it was to display animations, since the beginning, they have been in place to force losing scenarios to simulate difficulty as a balance mechanic for players being able to dispose of sinners. Which I believe is just bad overall.

I welcome unbreakable coins, but not how they were implemented.

[DoT]

Originally posted by Sham!:

Eh idk, nerfing red coins across the board means nerfing a good bunch of ids too at this point
Plus some enemies using them are a total nonissue, nice red coins Gubo, get wedgied now

We don't really have that many ID's that use unbreakable coins yet.

Plus. This is in terms of damage from losing the clash. ID's / EGO with unbreakable coins. They still reap the benefit of status infliction on top of a bit of poke damage. Just like how sometimes you might use EGO's that despite it only dealing 5 damage to the enemy due to resistances, will still be very useful if you are trying to activate a passive ability or just win the clash.

If unbreakable coins from our own sinners only got reduced damage output from losing a clash, the current ID's with unbreakable coins would still be good. It realistically isn't all that bad. This single handicap balances out unbreakable coins, both for enemies and ID's when using Cracked ( The games term for unbreakable coins that lost a clash) unbreakable coins.

[Gsprfdude]

I mean the thing about unbreakable coins as they exist now is that they benefit enemies more than the player. When you're dealing with bosses that have thousands of HP, it's not necessarily a bad trade for the enemy to eat 80 or 100 damage from a lost clash if it means it can deal 50 something damage to a sinner who only has less than 300 HP. The vast vast majority of the time you would just prefer to win the clash in the first place.

The only IDs we really have that I think can take unbreakable coins to their full potential is maybe running the kurakumo IDs since with the right setup they can have all their coins become unbreakable and not risk staggering when they lose a clash, but it's a bit of a niche.

I honestly don't even hate the idea of unbreakable coins as I think they can be a neat way to approach combat, I think just as a whole they don't necessarily have enough counters or even drawbacks. Not every boss or enemy design has a condition built in that lessens or reduces some effect when you do crack the coins, so to a lot of player it probably does feel kind of cheap that even though they 'won' the clash, they still feel punished.

I don't rightly know what the solution would be besides giving every special sort of red coin move some kind of conditional for cracking the coins, and these don't necessarily have to all be the same. I could see ones like 'if clash is lost all cracked coins will not trigger their listed on hit effect' or something like that instead of just purely being 'damage down' but idk.

[DoT]

Originally posted by ClassyD:

The red coins don't need nerfing. No fight has been made unwinnable from red coins. They do need to start analyzing what kind of toolkits are necessary to better handle them and start releasing EGO's and ID's with that in mind. Multi-coin Dodges, more Clashable Blocks (does the block proc for the unbreakable attack? if not they should change that), and more debuffs/status effects to punish flipping coins. Ishmael's Roseate Desire EGO is a good example of the sort of thing we should see coming out the pipeline now if PM wants to keep upping the ante with unbreakable coins.

Fights being winnable are irrelevant because that is not the issue at hand. This is about unbreakable coins in general.

It's the feeling of getting punished for playing well which is the problem. This is why i said it's a band-aid solution what pm did. Future fights are gonna have Enemies that deal alot of damage to the players sinner line-up due to them being blind first encounters, and feel cheated out of first attempts simply because they wanted to play with certain ID's. That's bad artificial difficulty design 101.

Releasing more newer ID's just to be able to deal with newer content is basically succumbing to pay-2-win. Which is also bad game design as it's not typically done in games in general, because it's to entice spending for the newer content. It's predatory. So no, releasing ID's and Ego's to for the soul purpose of being able to deal with future fights is just a straight up ugly and business suit solution.

Not that it really applies to limbus because you can always just shard anything new if you are a bp purchaser, but if newer ID's designed simply to just make things easier over being designed to be fun and unique, then i'm opposed. No thanks.

[lorde]

i think PM could benefit the players by adding a more indepth UI to the combat system, maybe graph aside a box that lets you know the metric of damages that will be done per coin rolled on the healthbar, and if it dips into stagger, what that damage would do if the clash goes through, do the math for the players (trust me its not fun, having done the math for RR), and also ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ add observation logs to non-abno bosses, not only is this cool for lore, its good for gameplay because things like observation logs could be used to add new parts of the UI that might even inform you of, in reference to my do-the-math-for-you idea, what part of the boss's health will trigger the next phase when high enough in obs logs, stuff like that

[DoT]

Originally posted by Gsprfdude:

I mean the thing about unbreakable coins as they exist now is that they benefit enemies more than the player. When you're dealing with bosses that have thousands of HP, it's not necessarily a bad trade for the enemy to eat 80 or 100 damage from a lost clash if it means it can deal 50 something damage to a sinner who only has less than 300 HP. The vast vast majority of the time you would just prefer to win the clash in the first place.

The only IDs we really have that I think can take unbreakable coins to their full potential is maybe running the kurakumo IDs since with the right setup they can have all their coins become unbreakable and not risk staggering when they lose a clash, but it's a bit of a niche.

I honestly don't even hate the idea of unbreakable coins as I think they can be a neat way to approach combat, I think just as a whole they don't necessarily have enough counters or even drawbacks. Not every boss or enemy design has a condition built in that lessens or reduces some effect when you do crack the coins, so to a lot of player it probably does feel kind of cheap that even though they 'won' the clash, they still feel punished.

I don't rightly know what the solution would be besides giving every special sort of red coin move some kind of conditional for cracking the coins, and these don't necessarily have to all be the same. I could see ones like 'if clash is lost all cracked coins will not trigger their listed on hit effect' or something like that instead of just purely being 'damage down' but idk.

Unbreakable's can still be fun and unique by forcing status effects. I think that allows for pm to be creative with them. So I don't think they should add triggers that cracked coins lose on hit effects since the main problem stems from taking a ton of damage from the skill itself.

Someone earlier suggested to make it so base power drops to 0, but that's going a bit overboard and would make any potential negative unbreakable coin ID redundant.

Maybe just Halfing (rounding down) the base power is a good start for skills that lost all clashes with their unbreakable coins. Counters already pretty much simulate unbreakable coins to a degree as well, as you get hit and then hit the enemy back, So this helps separate regular counters from skills with unbreakable coins by a good degree of risk/reward value.