Instalar Steam
iniciar sesión
|
idioma
简体中文 (chino simplificado)
繁體中文 (chino tradicional)
日本語 (japonés)
한국어 (coreano)
ไทย (tailandés)
Български (búlgaro)
Čeština (checo)
Dansk (danés)
Deutsch (alemán)
English (inglés)
Español de Hispanoamérica
Ελληνικά (griego)
Français (francés)
Italiano
Bahasa Indonesia (indonesio)
Magyar (húngaro)
Nederlands (holandés)
Norsk (noruego)
Polski (polaco)
Português (Portugués de Portugal)
Português-Brasil (portugués de Brasil)
Română (rumano)
Русский (ruso)
Suomi (finés)
Svenska (sueco)
Türkçe (turco)
Tiếng Việt (vietnamita)
Українська (ucraniano)
Comunicar un error de traducción
Normas y directrices sobre discusión
Denunciar este mensaje
Heathcliff didn't corrode, he distorted, and if the other Sinners hadn't been there to snap him out of it, he very likely would've stayed that way. That's what distinguishes EGO corrosion from distortion; corrosion depletes itself, but distortion can maintain itself indefinitely. This is why Heathcliff, Kim, Dongrang, Angela, and Roland have to be thrashed soundly to snap them out of it, and why even stomping the Reverb Ensemble into the ground wasn't enough to change them back.
Peccatulae don't result from distortion; they result from failed attempts to create abnormalities. Nobody turns into an abnormality through distortion either; a few abnos may have existed before Ayin and friends started doing experiments with Cogito, but distortions are sentient (albeit overwhelmed by emotion), while abnos can only act according to the concept they represent. [Censored] can only ever rape and murder, because that's what it represents; in contrast, Tanya could have stopped slaughtering people at any time if she'd wanted to, but she didn't want to, because it was the course of action her beliefs supported. We do not know whether the Erlking has his powers through distortion or manifestation, though I will concede that his infinite self-loathing suggests the former.
Complete EGO manifestation isn't godhood either. Kali had completely manifested her EGO and she was still mortally wounded by an Arbiter who hadn't even heard of EGO. The Head may be the closest thing to God the City has, but given that the Fingers are each powerful enough to defy it, it's safe to conclude that the Arbiters aren't gods either.
I should elaborate better on this, but I'm too tired to see straight, let alone do so. I nodded off twice just typing this.
Nah, I am completely against that 'EGO we use in-game is a similar process to how L-CORP used abnormality EGO Gear'.
In Lobotomy Corp, you equip the EGOs on the Sinners for the whole day, and because it's your technology + Qlipoth Deterrence + not swapping it every 5 minutes, corrosion almost never happens.
The Sinners do not use the EGOs, they borrow it, just like how they borrow the IDs. Since EGO will heavily affect your consciousness and you borrow it, they corrode the Sinners extremely quickly. This is why the company only allow them to be equipped for one turn.
In return, when you unequip the EGOs, the lingering mentalities it left behind still exists in the SInners' consciousness, and their passive effects are retained.
Note: this is also theory.
there is a stage of distortions to make it simple to understand.
if you play ruina this easily understand specially if you remember the end game how all Reverberation Ensemble group fully evolve to true final form of their distortions.
become complete monster or something.
WonderLab will still be canon to me
Well, that's not true. In Leviathan, the character named Jumsoon turned into Abnormality (Schadenfreude) from his distorted form. Also Abnormalities are sentient. They can communicate, remember things etc. thought they are materialized depersonalized concepts.
Also I understand L Corp. Singularity-based transformations like this:
Peccatulae - Materialized Base Emotion. Person that don't have a strong personality can't form even a depersonalized concept, thus turning into abnormality-like creature that represent base emotions (AKA Sins in LCB).
Abnormality - Materialized Concept. Formed through overwriting personality with concept (how LobCorp made abnos) or when core principles of person's personality are shaken and broken (Jumsoon case) thus, losing indentity and creating a depersonalized entity.
Distortion - Materialized Wishes/Wants. Forms when person is consumed by their immideate wishes and reformed to accomodate them (That's why it's so changeable. Short-term wishes are like this. Like, Phillip is having 4 different distorted forms in LoR). Also Carmen is trying to push people into Distortions, but everyone know this.
EGO - Materialized Will. When person understands theyself and know what they want in a more long-term, they materialize their controlled psyche into instrument. That's also what Ayin wants from people.
So. person can turn to Distorsion from EGO form and vice versa. Also can turn into Abnormality, but not back. All depends on state of psyche. EGO users are just need mental resiliense to be EGO users so they usually don't distorst.
Also Sinner's EGO's are not Effloresced EGO (Donbaek, Ahab) nor Volatile EGO (Phillip) nor Lobotomy EGO (That's quite obvious). They are different. First, they're not maintained for a duration of a fight. Even inexperienced EGO users (Xiao, Ahab and others) maintain them for quite a long. Second, they drain Sanity. And that's strange for at least an Effloresced EGO. Third, They are quite standardized. In all of them Sinners wearing red-white striped outfits.
My guess that they are somewhat borrowed from Mirror Worlds. Like, when we borrow EGO from Abnormalities. And Mirror Worlds are surely connected to L corp Singularity (effect of Golden Bought in Canto VI) so I think their EGO have that nature.
And if I remember correctly, Angela not distorted or corroded in LoR, She resonated, like Sinners with GB or something like that.
Also, that's just MY interpretation, so if there are any noticable mistakes, I would be happy to hear them. If someone want an elaboration on some topic I will gladly provide. Sorry for wall of text and mistakes (my English is quite bad in that way).
I hope that will be useful for somebody
Shin is after all when a user clear the mind and focus on events in the past that have an emotional impact( read Leviathan for more context).
The EGO that the sinners use are a part of their past. You can see it in the background above them in each sinners base ego art.
Heathcliff Wuthering Heights, Ishmael the whale ,Sinclair his family with their prosthetic (funnily enough their a 4th person in the art instead of 3 implying that's him) Yi Sang the mirrors, and etc. etc.
But what makes their EGO a mess up version of Shin? Well in the novel Vergilius mind and focus on the death of the kids in the orphanage but he also focus on the joys that he had with the orphans and the time spent with. So he focused on both the positive and the negative of the event. The sinners are doing the same but instead they only focus on the negative parts creating these temporary EGOs and perhaps with some help with whatever limbus company cooked up.
Although Shin have never been seen to have the capacity to change appearance and makes weapons like EGO those so this could be entirely wrong. It only seem make Mang and give a power boost. Although this could lead to giving each sinner a power boost after inferno.
They're not sentient. They have will in the same sense a dog has will; they have desires and needs, and they will act to fulfill them, but they aren't capable of choosing not to fulfill those desires and needs. Fairy Long-Legs must eat people, One Sin must hear people's confessions, WhiteNight must wreck entire runs at the slightest provocation. They don't have a choice, and they can't even conceive of those things as being choices, so they don't have free will, and therefore aren't sentient.
I'd argue Distortion is more a case of of materialized delusion, such as Philip's inability to accept that he wasn't the virtuous hero he saw himself as, or Tanya abandoning the Middle's ideals in favor of social Darwinism to cope with the death of her entire crew (she wasn't strong enough to keep them alive, yet she survived, meaning she must have been stronger than them). In Heathcliff's case, he let his own self-loathing override the rest of his self-image, distorting it and thus Distorting him.
You're probably right about that.
As do the Sinners with Effloresced EGO IDs (Spicebush Yi Sang, Sunshower Heathcliff, etc.), yes. Presumably, Efflorescence is a more advanced release compared to simply manifesting an EGO. But we're also dealing with a video game, so at least part of the Sinners only manifesting EGO for one attack is a gameplay issue. There's bound to be a diegetic explanation for why they can only do it for one turn, as opposed to going super-mode like Kali, but we haven't gotten it yet.
We're in agreement that they didn't naturally manifest their EGOs and are relying on some external factor to do it. And since Mephistopheles's engine is what dispenses both IDs and EGOs, and the Mirror is part of what makes that work, I agree that the Mirror must have something to do with it. But you're wrong about Mirror Worlds being connected to L Corp's Singularity. Yi Sang developed the Mirror without any access to L Corp's Singularity or Golden Boughs (and presumably Young-ji didn't have access to them when he developed his Glass Window either) and the Mirror Worlds themselves are simply alternate timelines where things played out differently.
Resonating with abnos' feelings/aspects is how to use their powers in the first place; corrosion is what happens when the abno's feelings/aspects overwhelm the user. Therefore, it might be more accurate to say she corroded than to say she distorted.
You did raise some very good points. I can't speak for others, but I understood what you were saying.
No, it isn't. Shin turns emotions into power. The Sinners are so named because they use Shin to generate the resources they need to manifest their EGOs. The EGOs themselves aren't Shin.
Schadenfreude bursted from his insides. Soooo, considering quote that I will provide later, it's probably former.
In that sense you are right. I'd say that even dogs have more free will that Abnormalities. Question is in a matter of "sentience" definition. So, i'd say that Abnormalities are sentient in a different way than humans. You'd that they are not at all. So I guess we are both right on that.
Leviathan (Vergillius) quote:
"According to the voice, Distorting is a form of rebirth under a new appearance by fully
embracing their craving. The value they consider to be the answer becomes their raison
d'être, and their form changes to the shape they wished for.
If the very desire that encompasses their foundation collapsed, what would happen to the
things that composed it?
If it cannot exist, it would only be right for them to melt down."
Well, with Philip's inability to acceptance he wanted to run away, don't hear/see/say anything, and so it's defined his distorted form. So, delusion more in a sense for reason of Distortion and in a sense of mistaking emotional cravings for true long-term wishes.
There are two main uses of L Corp's Singularity. 1) Energy generation with PE. 2) Mind materialization. So there are two possibilities.
First. Mephistopheles's engine and built-in Mirror uses Enkephalin as energy source, and aren't deeply connected. In that case L Corp's Singularity and Mirror Worlds truly are not connected and I am wrong.
Second. (HEAVY THEORY BASED WARNING) Mirror Worlds exists not as parrallel dimensions but as "Human possibility". L Corp's Singularity make use of humanity collective unconsciousness that is also origin of humanity (If I remember LC right it was named "Lake" with "River" that is flowing through City). So The Seed of Light plan was to give everyone a "bucket" so they can turn their mind into weapon aganist outside world. Also, L Corp. used it to draw more "pure" concepts in form of Abnormalities. (Again, I'm sure most PM fans know that.)
So in that sense, Mirror Worlds are more informational entity. Variations of one's mind and possible fates of that mind. So ID's nature is more like nature of Abnormality borrowed EGO, but from possibility of a person.
The rest are takes in defend for that, again, THEORY. (Somewhat)
Mirror and same technologies were developed after White Nights and Dark Days (if I remember correctly), when everyone had some access to L Corp's Singularity.
Mephistopheles's engine give access to ID's and EGO in a same manner (Maybe just a gameplay feature. But knowing PM...)
Jumsoon distorted when he was under heavy influence of Mirror-based technology.
Golden Bought deleted not Cathy, but her mind and information about her from human minds. Concept of "Cathy" in a sense. So, it changed Mirror Worlds (by removing Cathy from them), but leaved her body in reality. (Well, we don't seen her in MWs, so maybe it just deleted information in all MWs like in our main and not Cathy itself)
Also persons under GB influence still remembered her (Dante+Heathcliff) so she wasn't deleted from their minds. (Again it's more just a fact).
Carmen commenting IDs is also quite suspicious.
Also Mirror and other similiar techonogies have names of things that reflect or influencing light. (And Light is L Corp's Singularity)
If there are any contradictions to that theory, I would be glad to hear them. (Aside from Iori's dimensional leaping abilities. There's no confirmation that she is leaping beetween MWs and not something other.)
Truly.
It's actually quite interesting. Well, maybe she is really just corroded. But EGO she used during realisations and EGO that LIbrarians use is quite same in appearence. Also Angela's EGO, The Library, contained Abnormalities within self and Abnos was in some way part of it. Also Corrosion override psyche, but Angela thoughts are aligned with them in moments of realisation.
But there are a passive called "Corrosion" in realisations, so most likely PM just not developed that aspect so deeply as in Limbus.
Shin is just an another way to use Light. Like martial arts, that can be teached to anyone capable. Also Sins is a components of Light. Like, they're having colors of electromagnetic spectrum of visible Light. As if Light we are used in LoR was diffracted into Sins.
Again, sorry for the wall of text. I'm just loving to discuss PM Universe lore.
Ezra and Moses are part of Limbus Company, so its not that impossible for YuRia to have produced more of it for the Sinners.
It is temporary, and it is not spammable.
I also think that Psychomoment is not just EGO but some stage of it, as most of the people with it in DD dont seem to fit the EGOist thingie. But Im doubtful about this part, so take it with a grain of salt.
No, the definition of "sentience" is well-established. Free will, self-awareness, and the capacity for abstract thought are all requirements. Abnos have shown little to no evidence of self-awareness or abstract thought, and they don't have free will, therefore they aren't sentient.
Not actually a counterpoint.
Philip distorted into entities that don't hear/see/say anything because he didn't want to hear, see, or say anything that would reveal what a coward he truly was. His delusion took over and changed his body into a form that enabled it.
Tanya distorted into a lone wolf because lone wolves are the absolute metaphorical embodiment of "survival of the fittest," a concept that she claimed to embrace despite her very origin contradicting that philosophy. Once again, her form changed to enable her delusion.
Oswald was a lonely man with an overactive imagination. He turned into a horrible ringmaster clown with the power to distort others so that they'd join his circus. Form changed, delusion enabled. Do you see the pattern yet?
Wrong. L Corp's singularity is mind materialization tech, full stop. The tech they use to harvest PE from abnos is not a singularity, and the tech that converts PE into energy is commonplace enough to power the entire City with it.
Yes, you are wrong. Make your peace with it and move on. Producing Enkephalin was never L Corp's singularity. Producing abnos and EGO was.
Explicitly disproven by Canto VI.
You're making things up now. The White Nights and Dark Days did not give everyone access to L Corp's singularity, merely showered them in its results, and there's been absolutely no indication that the Glass Window or the Mirror were developed after (or because of) that event.
There are many, considering most of your points have nothing to do with each other or with your basic premise, and the ones that do are provably wrong...
Aligning with them is what lets her get overridden. That's the whole point. You have to understand and resonate with the abno's feelings without letting them bleed into your own, because when you let them bleed into your own, that's what happens.
There is absolutely nothing to support this theory. Most people in the City don't even know what Light is, let alone how to use it deliberately. For all we know, Shin predates the White Nights and Dark Days.
But we can make a reasonable guess that that's not how the SInners got their ego. Especially before their respective cantos, it is hard to imagine they went through that process of conflict and resolution. If anything, the lines they give while using ego make it seem like their Ego skills are an expression of the conflict or mental circumstance itself, which simply hasn't been tipped into distortion. Their case it probably due to their status as sinners, or the companies research into ego and distortions.
Red Mist.