Spider Ryoshu kit in-depth analysis

[jobhobster]

Mostly highlights, some skills breakdown, and how she's supposed to play out by analyzing all parts of her kit.
(Also here's a link to drive with pictures. I was supposed to upload them on imgur, but ♥♥♥♥ it I'm tired it wasn't worth it anyway ffs)
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1v_HrXym4Srj7uXVwCI3O3itsiWPMqxZB?usp=sharing
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So, Spider Ryoshu's main gimmick is the Red Eyes/Penitence (RE/P) effects, which act like 'Unique Charge', with her passive converting any Charge she gains into RE/P.

"And how it interracts with MD EGO gifts?"
Well, we have this part on update announcment: https://imgur.com/JVjFNb6
As you can see, majority of EGO gifts are going to have 'Unique Charge' included, so that means something like Wrist Guards will trigger on Spider Ryo, with only a minority of EGO gifts being excluded.
"Are there any important one's that doesn't work with her?" I'd say only UPS system, extra damage is nice. Also, I'd assume Lightning Rod Charge should be converted via Spider Ryo passive, but I guess it being excluded means passives start working only after Lightning Rod already gave Charge? Not sure about that. Also Charge-Type Gloves (+10 Max Charge) weren't mentioned in either affected/unaffected EGO gifts, so I have no idea how it works with Spider Ryo.

As for passives for Charge Count, the only noticeable one I found is W Faust "1 Ally with lowest Max HP gains +1 Charge Count", and I'm pretty sure it won't trigger, because you don't gain Charge with Spider Ryo, you gain 'Unique Charge', and considering there is nothing about W Faust in announcment (unlike EGO Gifts), I'm pretty sure it won't work.
However, there is something about it I want to throw in, that being Shark Ryo EGO, which gains CHARGE. And question is, will W Faust passive proc BEFORE conversion to RE/P, or AFTER? Because if it happens before, and you hit 3 people, it's going to be quite cool, especially considering Spider Ryo covers 2/3 sins required for Shark Ryo. Tho, W Faust will anyway be suboptimal choice, because as you will see later, Spider Ryo is a Blunt ID that heavily relies on Bleed, and there is only one Faust who excels both at Bleed and boosting Blunt/Pierce, and giving lack of banger Bleed ID's at the moment, N Faust is here to stay at least until S5 comes in with new epic Bleed support (while Rapture will get another 00)

Back to the topic of 'Unique Charge', with EGOs there's nothing too confusing about it. If Spider Ryo gets Charge from Telepole Don, that Charge converts to RE/P now, simple. She also fuels 2/3 sins required for Telepole Don, so that's cool aswell, even if I consider her being feautured on Charge team as suboptimal, and you will see why later.
And that's whole 'Unique Charge' shebang out of the way, because it's by far the most confusing part of her kit, that really comes out of nowhere, but we deal with what we got.

Now, other than being unique Charge, RE/P also has beneficial effects on their own, with RE inflicting MORE Bleed on Base Skill Coins, and P healing Ryo's SP when she hits someone with Base Skill Coins, as well as giving her a Shield on Turn Start. Both RE and P have 3 stages, which determines how effective their respective effects are. So that's it, RE = More Bleed, P = SP + Shield, gotcha.

On a side-note, here's the most important EGOs that she fuels partially or completely. I skipped some that would never come up, if you're using Spider Ryo, so yeah. (King in Binds is here because it's funny how she hits 3/4). And sadly she does misses 2/4 on both Sanguine and Awe, I really wish she had some Pride to her, maybe instead of S2 Gloom. But hey, at least she fully fuels Fluid Sac, so here's that.
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Now we can finally look on her actual skills and see how this all comes together.
In fact it doesn't, because despite having good 2/3/3 coins on all of her skills, only ONE coin per every skill inflicts Bleed, and no Bleed Count. That's already a huge blow to RE effect usefulness, because eg S1 inflicts 2 Bleed, and RE at Stage 3 boosts it by 3. In total, you inflict 5 Bleed, which isn't anything special. So yeah, if you were interested in Spider Ryo as purely Bleed ID outside of Bloody Mist, you can skip everything I got to say about her further, because she's not good at it, and if you're really into Bleed you'd probably want to keep sticking to KK Ryo. However, if you're a Red Shoes owner, and give no heck about Count, while your Ring ID's go postal on potency, there's are still a lot of stuff to Spider Ryo, which can make her a quite good DD on your team

And she definitely would want to be on Bleed team, because all of her skills have one thing in common, that being benefitting from RE and Bleed much more than from P.
-S1 has Coin Power Conditional that triggers at X+ RE
-S2 has two Coin Power Conditionals, one triggers if target has X+ Bleed, and other one triggers if sum of RE and P is at X+
-S3 Alt gains Coin Power for every X RE
You noticed a trend. All really juicy stuff is kept behind accumulating RE, while P mostly increases Base Power of skills.

So I'd like to go and analyze how exactly do we ramp up Spider Ryo, but before that I think I should adress some of her effects that deserve honorable mention
-S3 has extremely easy coin power conditions, being faster than target and having max SP, which shouldn't be a problem for anyone unless they're fighting mermaids/have no Bind application
-S3 Alt heals HP/SP of +Highest Res amount of people. If you get a good Lust chain going, you can achieve a mini Fluid Sac for free.
-After using S3 Alt Ryo can't get any RE/P for a turn. This sucks, but could be worse.
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So, now that we saw that she doesn't have anything out of ordinary in terms of her effects, it leaves us mostly with DD unit, which relies on ramping up RE to fire off 3 Coiner Blunts. So how do we actually play her?
Because if you look closely on her skills, every skill has only one instance of being guarantee to get RE, which, of course, isn't enough to fulfill S2 and S3 Alt Coin Power conditionals. So let's see how do we get more RE.

Well, the most obvious thing is her Counter, that gives her RE, and additional RE if Ryo is at X- RE. This makes obvious what we should do on fight start, that being getting hit and hit back, while our Bleed guys go postal on inflicting Bleed.
Them inflicting Bleed is important, because Spider Ryo has a passive with multitudes of effects, and the one that interests us for now is "'gain RE' coins provide additional RE when hitting target with Bleed", which essentially allows us to double the amount of RE given from skills, if target is already bleeding, with the most prominent example being S2, which has two instances of RE gain, so it will be our primary skill for gaining a huge amount of RE.

"What if I don't want to play Bleed? She has "convert Charge into RE/P" passive, so how about that?" And while, yes, you can provide her with Charge via eg Telepole Don, Photoelectricity or W Outis' Charge Barriers, I can't really say how efficient it is because it converts Charge into either RE or P, so it's up to RNG how efficient such strategy would be. You could also use Shark Ryo EGO, because it provides Charge on hit, so instead of one big instance, you get several smaller ones, and respectively, more chance to get any RE at all. I'll come back to "W Ryoshu vs Spider Ryoshu" topic later, but for now that's it for RE generation.

Oh, and you might have noticed how, while talking about all the RE stuff, I barely mentioned P. Well, other than having less impact on her conditionals, P is also much easier to get, with having at least one instance on every skill, and two instances on S1. Combine this with passive, that gives additional P when Ryo hits people with 'gain P' coins at X+ SP (4 instances of P gain on S1), and the fact that she gains additional P while being hit (and she can eat some hits, due to P providing Shield on Turn Start), and P should accumulate on it's own pretty fast.
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So that's it for RE/P generation. We hit bleeding people, and eat hits we can eat, thus making sure Spider Ryo is well and strong. Before wraping this whole ID, I'd also like to mention, that her passive not only provides additional RE/P, but also increases damage of 'RE/P gain' coins (which is entire S1/S2, first two coins of S3 and Counter) by RE/P and target being slower/having less SP than Ryo (also works on enemies without sanity, cause their sanity counts as 0)
Even if both effects combined net around 15% DMG increase it's already pretty good, and if it's more, it's even better, because 2/3/3 DD, even if it lacks a 4 Coin skill, can still dish out solid damage.

So yeah, after diving head deep into Spider Ryo kit, we can see that she's not as much Charge ID, as someone similar to Pirate Greg, who had almost to none Bleed, but really liked hitting people with Bleed to S3 nuke them. Her playstyle is focused around ramping up RE/P via hitting people with Bleed, and tanking chip damage, so later she can provide pretty good damage via S2 and both of her S3. Nothing about it is too out of reason, we do have some pretty good Bleed ID's, even if there should be more (S5 please 000 Lust Res Bleed Rodya), just hitting people who bleed isn't hard (tho if you know you can't hit bleeding person with your S2 you should save it), and we all know situations where boss randomly targets our DD, and in case of Spider Ryo she can not only ignore it, but also benefit from it by gaining P. She also can sustain other people, and regain her SP via P, which is pretty good aswell.
All in all, she comes out as bulky DD with some sustain for herseld and other people mixed in, and this leaves only one question left.
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"Is she better than W Ryo? Is W Ryo dead now?"
In my opinion, absolutely no. Spider Ryo depends on RE heavily, so you either need a Bleed unit to support her, or a Charge unit/EGO. With Bleed she and W Ryo go separate ways, and with Charge she's really unreliable due to randomness of conversion into either RE or P. W Ryo on the other hand is consistent, has a 4 Coin skill, and while being squishy, just fairs better as a straightforward DD.
So that's my predictions. Spider Ryo is going to settle down in Bleed/Lust-Res teams as a bulky DD and reliable support, while W Ryo stays as "♥♥♥♥ it we all Ryo" who does funny dance dance revolution thing.
However, I'm pretty sure she will kill KK Ryo, because unless you, for some reason, REALLY want all the Bleed of the world, Spider easily provides far more utility than KK, so that's pretty much it for comprasion of different Ryo ID's.
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If you're reading this, thank you. I might do Coffin Sang as well.

[Angela]

Sensei guy gone missing so now you're taking his place

[Reptiloid]

About time.

[jobhobster]

Originally posted by Angela:

Sensei guy gone missing so now you're taking his place :TeddyAngela:

I'm fine with that, because I'm myself have no idea what they're about until I try to go indepth with them.

[Prabs Prettypaws]

"there should be more bleed ids"

There are far more Bleed IDs than any other condition. PM could officially decide (and announce) tomorrow that they'll never release another Bleed ID again for the rest of Limbus Company's life cycle, and there would still be too many of them.

Anyway, what I'm getting from this is that RE&P Ryoshu is gonna benefit greatly from teaming up with R Meursault, since they're both Charge-Bleed hybrids that can't quite sustain a decent level of Bleed individually (with R Meursault's S2 and S3 being great for Count but not for Potency).

[H11DN-D4NG3R]

I think we need 2 more? Charge bleed ids, to get the scuffed double fusion gifts

[Prabs Prettypaws]

Originally posted by H11DN-D4NG3R:

I think we need 2 more? Charge bleed ids, to get the scuffed double fusion gifts

Yeah, that sounds about right. One pure-Bleed, one pure-Charge, and four hybrid. But I feel it's more fun when they're just spicing up an otherwise one-note team, personally.

[SmallGespenst]

Double Fusion stuff is getting into heavy meme territory, especially since the Charge fusion is pretty eh under most circumstances.

[Prabs Prettypaws]

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

Double Fusion stuff is getting into heavy meme territory, especially since the Charge fusion is pretty eh under most circumstances.

T-1 Perpetual Motion Machine's not the greatest, but it does have the longest name of the fusion gifts, and it's still better than Soothe the Dead. Good luck getting all four pieces in one run though.

[H11DN-D4NG3R]

Originally posted by Miss Prettypaws, if you're nasty:

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

Double Fusion stuff is getting into heavy meme territory, especially since the Charge fusion is pretty eh under most circumstances.

T-1 Perpetual Motion Machine's not the greatest, but it does have the longest name of the fusion gifts, and it's still better than Soothe the Dead. Good luck getting all four pieces in one run though.

I have done a "Triple" fusion run

Using the bleed+poise+the Pequod crew team

But back on topic, it all depends on the amount of bleed it can deal, tho i assume its a 1 bleed at base and 4 bleed when full stacked

[BeavisSaves]

Spider Cigarette Mom- Does whatever a Cigarette Mom does, which is barely enough to keep Child Protective Services off her back.

[Ortaign]

I really don't understand why she doesn't have at least 1 bleed count, Is it because there are future bleed IDs on the way soon that take care of bleed count and her having bleed count too would just be too strong with a kit like her's? Honestly It feels like they made a mistake or are leaving something out of her preview

[fliesabove78]

Originally posted by Ortaign:

I really don't understand why she doesn't have at least 1 bleed count, Is it because there are future bleed IDs on the way soon that take care of bleed count and her having bleed count too would just be too strong with a kit like her's? Honestly It feels like they made a mistake or are leaving something out of her preview

I honestly don't see how bleed count is so hard to apply for people. The team I use Queecliff, Cap Ishmeal, the two ring ids, Hook Lu, and N Faust all (except ishmael since she only provide potency) provide enough count for boss fights. https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561199496873841/screenshot/2390935860992420291/

[SmallGespenst]

Originally posted by Ortaign:

I really don't understand why she doesn't have at least 1 bleed count, Is it because there are future bleed IDs on the way soon that take care of bleed count and her having bleed count too would just be too strong with a kit like her's? Honestly It feels like they made a mistake or are leaving something out of her preview

It entrenches her as an ID that's not going to carry a Burn team, and will need team support to fuel her conditionals, and that's fine. Bleed Count has been mostly fine since the Ring IDs dropped, just don't ignore Outis.

[Birp]

Originally posted by Ortaign:

I really don't understand why she doesn't have at least 1 bleed count, Is it because there are future bleed IDs on the way soon that take care of bleed count and her having bleed count too would just be too strong with a kit like her's? Honestly It feels like they made a mistake or are leaving something out of her preview

IDs shouldn't be good at everything or it defeats the point of teambuilding & results in homogenized game design.

If they want to give her bleed count, they would have to tone down other parts of her kit for it remain relatively balanced.

[Zeru]

Originally posted by Miss Prettypaws, if you're nasty:

Originally posted by H11DN-D4NG3R:

I think we need 2 more? Charge bleed ids, to get the scuffed double fusion gifts

Yeah, that sounds about right. One pure-Bleed, one pure-Charge, and four hybrid. But I feel it's more fun when they're just spicing up an otherwise one-note team, personally.

Three hybrids already exist. RE&P Ryoshu, Rabbit Heathcliff, Rhino Meursault. So it's actually 1 off from the scuffed Blarge Team.

Edit: Bonus points, all three of them care about Haste.