EGO Gifts too Strong... kind of true

[Ekimmak]

So, I wasn't able to see everything in the stream, because ADHD. But I recall somewhere that PM are concerned about how EGO Gifts in mirror dungeons have led to a bit of a problem: Rating IDs by a power boost that you don't get for 90% of the game.

... It's kind of true. When I think of a Burn team, it's always with the Hellterfly's Dream in the background, with maybe Ashes to Ashes or Soothe the Dead throwing even more burn over the opponents. Rupture Teams are basically married to Talisman Bundle++, and I feel very disappointed for not having Midwinter Nightmare on Sinking Teams.

I don't know how they're going to rebalance everything to fix this mentality, though.

[jobhobster]

They said something about Weekly/Monthly content that will incentivize usage of different ID's and also something about EGO gift rotation, if I remember correctly. Honestly, I think they can kill two birds with one stone, if they both add some new game mode as they mentioned, and make it work with EGO Gifts. So we both get to use other ID's, and use them while boosted with EGO Gifts.

[CarThief]

Oh joy. Guess they'll kill the only way to beat Hard MDs. No fusion? No pass. Do not go.

Well, I wouldn't mind if they also nerfed enemies back to the first Hard MD release state, where they where tough, but your S3 could still match the boss' tougher skills, and dodging mattered, too. Those where the good days, but they where also largely pre-Gift Saturation.

(And PM back then also didn't give enemies a huge buff that'd let them roll anywhere from 16 to 24 casually, on their regular combat skills... Or get 300%+ HP...)

[Nut]

Originally posted by CarThief:

Oh joy. Guess they'll kill the only way to beat Hard MDs. No fusion? No pass. Do not go.

Well, I wouldn't mind if they also nerfed enemies back to the first Hard MD release state, where they where tough, but your S3 could still match the boss' tougher skills, and dodging mattered, too. Those where the good days, but they where also largely pre-Gift Saturation.

(And PM back then also didn't give enemies a huge buff that'd let them roll anywhere from 16 to 24 casually, on their regular combat skills... Or get 300%+ HP...)

Meh, 'only way' is an exaggeration. Didn't even start using thematic (faction/status based) teams till late last season, and (t4) fusion till this season. I'd mainly been using a Mish-Mash team with high clash numbers & evasion for all content, think Yuri Faust, W Don etc.

Many clash gods are easily available for sharding or in standard extraction so it's not like one can say they're limited only. Easily won or evaded most clashes without much hassle or need of EGOs until 4th/5th floor depending on what mounting trial I chose. Can even bypass the hardest challenge for this sort of team (DPS checks) by just picking a different floor theme.

Can't exactly go for easy-mode status t4 gifts, so the biggest buff I'd get from gifts were say, stuff like Inhaler + Cigarette holder combo, which is basically +20% damage and a whole +2 final power. Or Curriculum Vitae + any full-team charge generating gift.

Even did the same many times with a 00 and 0 only team, still succeed, just some more hassle.

[Joshua Kurayami]

If they want to start taking away gifts then they should at the very least pay us more (crates, not useless starlight, although this is more for F2P players since P2P players always end up with a warehouse filled with crates while F2P gets paid diddly) to do said challenges.. And no, I don't mean like a one time weekly thing like they do with MDH and weekly dungeon bonuses. Give me a reason to do tedious things without it being another 'do once and then forget.' or 'do a certain amount of times (like event tokens) and then forget'.

[Birp]

"So what we're thinking is a rotation? of E.G.O gifts, that's one way, we're thinking of ways like that. Making MDs more fun while not taking away the fun from other content. So this, like, when new MDs come out, and the list of E.G.O gifts have changed or have some missing, we're not planning on blocking ways of making MD runs easier, but having a more fun experience. We hope you understand this, it'll be a little great if you do."

Imo if they want to add more ego gifts to the pool, they should trim some older ones out too. Not really for balancing purposes, but just to keep the pool from becoming too bloated.

Originally posted by Joshua Kurayami:

If they want to start taking away gifts then they should at the very least pay us more (crates, not useless starlight, although this is more for F2P players since P2P players always end up with a warehouse filled with crates while F2P gets paid diddly) to do said challenges.. And no, I don't mean like a one time weekly thing like they do with MDH and weekly dungeon bonuses. Give me a reason to do tedious things without it being another 'do once and then forget.' or 'do a certain amount of times (like event tokens) and then forget'.

Well, he did say they're thinking about offering exp/thread as a md reward in the future, but crate income is prob not going to increase.

I mean, f2ps get enough crates to shard like ~7 IDs/EGOs per season. That seems fine to me, considering that the lunacy income & gacha rates are also high.

Idk what % of the collection day 1 f2ps have, but if its 90%+ that's already incredibly generous. Most gachas f2ps players can expect at most 60-70%.

[jobhobster]

Originally posted by Birp:

"So what we're thinking is a rotation? of E.G.O gifts, that's one way, we're thinking of ways like that. Making MDs more fun while not taking away the fun from other content. So this, like, when new MDs come out, and the list of E.G.O gifts have changed or have some missing, we're not planning on blocking ways of making MD runs easier, but having a more fun experience. We hope you understand this, it'll be a little great if you do."

I mean if one season PM comes off and says "no Clear Water this season", it's the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idea I've ever heard. Even if this rotation happens once a month, it's still cringe, if they want to do something like that, better put that into some different new game mode.

[76561199131858533]

not kind of true, it's true.

the damage not from sinner but purely E.G.O gift overpowered everything and instant kill everything with 1000 - 3000 nuke damage.

[Birp]

Originally posted by jobhobster:

I mean if one season PM comes off and says "no Clear Water this season", it's the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idea I've ever heard. Even if this rotation happens once a month, it's still cringe, if they want to do something like that, better put that into some different new game mode.

I mean, Clear Water is a t4 gift and most t4 status gifts are busted as ♥♥♥♥ (besides the rocks)

If hypothetically they remove Clear Water, they'll probably replace with something equally busted.

[Joshua Kurayami]

Originally posted by Birp:

Well, he did say they're thinking about offering exp/thread as a md reward in the future, but crate income is prob not going to increase.

I mean, f2ps get enough crates to shard like ~7 IDs/EGOs per season. That seems fine to me, considering that the lunacy income & gacha rates are also high.

Idk what % of the collection day 1 f2ps have, but if its 90%+ that's already incredibly generous. Most gachas f2ps players can expect at most 60-70%.

Ah yes let's keep giving everyone thread and EXP even though it is bound to increase with every season on top of giving it so often through events and such. I have enough to get a brand new team maxed out to level 45 and uptied to tier 3, but hey, let's not make people too strong by giving them crates that F2Pers desperately need more to uptie T4 and buy crap.

Just because it is possible for an F2Per to get 7 IDs/EGOs through crates doesn't mean it is enough. If you don't care that much about getting IDs or EGOs, great, then that's enough, but for the people that are genuinely trying to get every single ID and EGO, even if that is a long term goal that could take years, it is a ridiculous dream when A) You have to deal with IDs and EGOs getting released roughly every 2 weeks B) You have to sacrifice between either getting Thread and EXP which, while you will always need it, you are still being given large quantities of it through events, C) Deciding if you should even uptie your team to 4 or not, and that includes your EGOs that are even more expensive. D) All that time you have to waste just to, besides the weekly bonuses, only get 3 crates every run, which translates to you doing 66 runs to get roughly 200 crates for a brand new ego or ID, 8 runs to get 25 for uptie 4, and 25 runs to get 75 crates to uptie a WaW EGO. E) You obviously can't rely on gacha to guarantee getting a lot of things, considering I've spent at least 70 extraction attempts to not get Captain Ishmael when she was released, just so I can end up farming the dungeons to get her.

If you seriously think that 3 crates every MD is 'enough' for pure F2Pers to achieve all of their goals, then you are obviously not looking it from a F2Per's point of view who joined recently, or even F2Pers who have been around for a few seasons already, and this is coming from someone who's been around since late S3 and ended up with over 1.2k levels.. twice. Also a small note in case you are unaware the big difference between F2P and P2P: P2P players get three times as much crates as F2P, which is why 3 crates is basically the same as being paid pennies. That's why F2Pers need to get paid more crates from MD (If P2P is getting 9 crates every MD then F2P should at least get half as much) and not just as a one time thing like MDH weekly bonus or doing dailies. (And that's not mentioning not having enough energy can also be an issue and the amount of time people have to waste just doing tedious MD dungeons over and over and over just to achieve their impossible 'dream' of getting everything, even if it takes months or even years. Can't be done when everything else is only getting more expensive, including when they eventually release their first ALEPH EGO. People can't just survive with occasional bonuses from weekly bonuses or events.. which only gives you like 20 crates at most. while you get like 300 thread or enough level tickets to almost max out an ID.)

[Birp]

Originally posted by Joshua Kurayami:

Just because it is possible for an F2Per to get 7 IDs/EGOs through crates doesn't mean it is enough.

I mean, 7 ids/egos via crates + a fairly high number of ids/egos via pulling every season is enough to satisfy most f2ps. Keyword: most.

Originally posted by Joshua Kurayami:

If you don't care that much about getting IDs or EGOs, great, then that's enough, but for the people that are genuinely trying to get every single ID and EGO, even if that is a long term goal that could take years,

I'm sorry to tell you this, but this is a gacha game. What gacha game lets f2ps get 100% collection? None. Even 70%+ is above average.

Originally posted by Joshua Kurayami:

If you seriously think that 3 crates every MD is 'enough' for pure F2Pers to achieve all of their goals...

I didn't address the topic of MD non-bonus runs, but since you brought it up, it's obvious that they don't intend for people to grind MD ad nauseum just for the rewards.

3 crates for non-bonus runs is, indeed, ♥♥♥♥, but the 22.5 (67.5) crates for doing it once a week is extremely good. That's how gacha games generally operate. They reward players who play a little bit every day/week quite generously, but the effort:reward ratio drops off a cliff past that 'little bit' threshold.

Why is that, well, there's various reasons, but the #1 is probably because anything gets stale the more you play it. They don't want md to feel stale, and they don't want people to play it solely for rewards rather than for fun.

Tbh Limbus is not really that rewarding to the hardcore extreme grinders who reach lvl 1000+ every season, but it is for the people who want a low time-investment gacha without much fomo.

Once they add more game modes, the game will be more rewarding for people who play a lot, but right now it's best to just think of this as a side game.

[SmallGespenst]

The key issue isn't the Gifts being powerful, but that the Sinners aren't.
Talisman Bundle feels needed because Rupture infliction is far too weak and count positive skills are extremely rare. it's the same situation with Wound Clerid for Bleed.
Gifts wouldn't be so warping that they completely disregard the functionality of IDs if the IDs just had builds that work without them, but PM never quite made inflictions enough to work without the booster-shot a few Gifts provide.

[Moyai]

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

The key issue isn't the Gifts being powerful, but that the Sinners aren't.
Talisman Bundle feels needed because Rupture infliction is far too weak and count positive skills are extremely rare. it's the same situation with Wound Clerid for Bleed.
Gifts wouldn't be so warping that they completely disregard the functionality of IDs if the IDs just had builds that work without them, but PM never quite made inflictions enough to work without the booster-shot a few Gifts provide.

The problem with rupture is that as soon as it gets consistently count positive, just about any boss gets shredded with tons of true damage on each hit

[【Silver】]

A lot of status are not meant to be built up easily or to such high extenditures as they do in Mirror Dungeons. Some are able to do this without a team even built for those status applications whatsoever.

For instance, I just ran a team where the only Bleed application was Sinclair and ended up with Wound Clerid & Rusted Muzzle, decided to upgrade them, and my team was putting up decent amounts of bleed on enemies.

Trying to balance ID's so they don't exasperate these effects more than they do already, but enough that they're actually applicable in non-MD modes is probably becoming difficult for them.

[SmallGespenst]

Originally posted by 【Silver】:

A lot of status are not meant to be built up easily or to such high extenditures as they do in Mirror Dungeons. Some are able to do this without a team even built for those status applications whatsoever.

For instance, I just ran a team where the only Bleed application was Sinclair and ended up with Wound Clerid & Rusted Muzzle, decided to upgrade them, and my team was putting up decent amounts of bleed on enemies.

Trying to balance ID's so they don't exasperate these effects more than they do already, but enough that they're actually applicable in non-MD modes is probably becoming difficult for them.

I feel like the key context for MD is that it's a rougelite grinding mode, there's nothing wrong with being able to get busted set-ups, that's an expected part of Rouglite/like gameplay loops. even at this point balancing for MD is a lost cause, with most status effect hitting the critical mass where the only measure of effectiveness is how soon they slam into the 99 cap with a handful of Gifts.