LETS IMAGINE THIS, AND GET SEATED. SPOILER WARNING.

[Mr.Game]

What if "Red Gazes" have a fight against "The Black Silence".

For sake of having fun, we will use the buffed roland and vergil. where vergil awakening his own ego, and roland have angelica gloves.
And they need and want to kill each other, which makes them not limiting their power.

Edit: I forgot to say that the terrain is in the city, and it is after roland comes out of library, which mean he doesnt have all his power that's comes from the library.

We will phase it to 2 scenario, 1 without ego and the other is with their own ego power.

For the record,
Vergilius is Known as "The Most Dangerous Fixer". He is a independent Fixer running his own office, use a heated gladius as weapon, have implant, ambidextrous, and tactics to discern and deconstruct combat scenarios. (not much i know or can remember, but at the start of leviathan (before he become color fixer, i think) he got beaten up by iori (Purple fixer)), not saying he is weak as he got "Red" as his color.

His ego equipment so far (as they still can be evolve to the point of full body), consisting of blood cloak, thorn crown, blood boots?, and blood sword.
His ego power as tell in stories and if i am not wrong, he can with, his ego manifest blood, with that said manifested blood he can submerged himself and comes out in another place that have the ego's blood, and his range of attack is extended by the blood.

Roland on the other hand, He have 2 set equipment/weapon, 1. Perception-blocking mask, which as the name say, and his own durandal (This one is his own equipment,and even before he have the "gloves" he is acknowledge as candidate of color fixer). 2. The black silence gloves (angelica's glove) which can store and have various workshop weapon, and muffle all the sound around it, and he have massacred a whole lots of people, from the fixer and finger when he is mad and searching about the pianist after he is using the gloves.

I do want to speculate roland's ego's power (Assuming he have one after realization), as far as i know there is only a 3, one is when he is in beast mode and that is spewing black smoke, in the beast fight the smoke causes lots of ailment, he got buffed (which mean maybe he got increase speed and power), and the other is after the beast fight he have phantom Angelica.

His ego equipment is his mask that fused and just become void and his sword that some part has become black smoke.

Here we can see that that imo, the first fight vergilious will have many disadvantage, we will have 2 scenarion, roland with his mask and durandal and other is with angelica's glove.
1st, vergi will fight roland fairly overpowering him with his weapon and strategy, as his mask (if not wrong) only block the perception and not the sound.

2nd is, roland can have many weapon to chose, the mask that block the perception of other to him, and the glove which makes him basically hidden from his enemies, and have ranged weapon which can be fired without detection from outside of vergil attack range.

On the 2nd fight (With EGO), vergil may have more advantage, he can makes blood pool and stay hidden inside which makes him immune to the smoke, and his attack range which is expanded by blood can be more dangerous.

So, imo in normal fight without ego, we can assume that roland will win the fight if when have the advantage of surprise attack, stealth, and many of weapon which vergil needs to worry and counter, but i do believe while its hard, vergil can still win assuming roland makes mistake or vergil makes some plan that counter all of that advantage.

On the 2nd fight i do think vergil have the upper hand as he can just spawn blood, and detect roland with the said blood (when he standing on top, as it can be seen when vergil just slashing the box abno), and maybe use tactic like spawn>slash>teleport to the splashed blood>and slash again. But he needs to wary of the smoke and angelica ghost when he attack, which maybe the only time where roland and angelica can attack vergil, which makes roland strategy is using himself as bait and waiting to pincer him.

but assuming roland win the 1st and makes vergil use his ego, we can assume that vergil is not in best condition for a long fight, but at the same time, i do believe that roland caught off guard when vergil use his ego and pushes roland to manifest his ego. which makes both of them need to kill each other quickly. imo, Roland have advantage which is his black smoke which worsening vergil, and angelica ghost to help him fight vergil.


Just, think about it, and humor me.

[Iggy the Unwise]

Talk all you want, Roland will wipe the floor with the old man, EGO or not. The fight is even more one sided if Roland will have any power from his library floor.

[Caxapok]

Roland already won in the past...

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by Iggy the Unwise:

Talk all you want, Roland will wipe the floor with the old man, EGO or not. The fight is even more one sided if Roland will have any power from his library floor.

This.

He's called the Black Silence because he doesn't talk much and the perception blocking mask makes him untraceable. He specializes in infiltration through sheer speed and lethality.

In theory, Verg is more dangerous. In practice, Roland would obliterate him. The perception blocking mask allows him to get in free attacks with every engagement, and since Roland specializes in speed, he can freely dictate the flow of the fight.

[Damoncles]

Originally posted by Terratrox:

This.

He's called the Black Silence because he doesn't talk much and the perception blocking mask makes him untraceable. He specializes in infiltration through sheer speed and lethality.

In theory, Verg is more dangerous. In practice, Roland would obliterate him. The perception blocking mask allows him to get in free attacks with every engagement, and since Roland specializes in speed, he can freely dictate the flow of the fight.

His mask just blocks the perception of who he is as a person, where's the free attack thing coming from?

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by Yukks:

Originally posted by Terratrox:

This.

He's called the Black Silence because he doesn't talk much and the perception blocking mask makes him untraceable. He specializes in infiltration through sheer speed and lethality.

In theory, Verg is more dangerous. In practice, Roland would obliterate him. The perception blocking mask allows him to get in free attacks with every engagement, and since Roland specializes in speed, he can freely dictate the flow of the fight.

His mask just blocks the perception of who he is as a person, where's the free attack thing coming from?

The mechanics for the Black Silence fight. The perception blocking mask explicitly makes one of his attacks unclashable because your units literally can't see it coming.

The mask isn't like... a normal mask. It doesn't just obscure his features. It makes your eyes slide right past him. It makes you incapable of perceiving him, to a limited extent.

[Reptiloid]

Current state Orlando would most likely win. We didn't see much action from Vergil in comparison to him, but Roland can shoot you, stab you, slice you, blunt force trauma you, do all of the above at a single time, gains power the more moves he does, and probably fast af. Not taking into account all the properties of his mask, and possibility of fighting him on his floor in library, where he can pop the heart and, well, gg. I mean, we have him going toe to toe with an Arbiter and Claw Executioner that are buffed by Beholder, so he's probably the strongest fixer alive rn, from sheer martial power, as Gebura isn't exactly alive anymore.

[Iggy the Unwise]

Originally posted by Reptiloid:

I mean, we have him going toe to toe with an Arbiter and Claw Executioner that are buffed by Beholder, so he's probably the strongest fixer alive rn, from sheer martial power, as Gebura isn't exactly alive anymore.

And that after 3 days of nonstop fighting.

[Reptiloid]

Originally posted by Iggy the Unwise:

Originally posted by Reptiloid:

I mean, we have him going toe to toe with an Arbiter and Claw Executioner that are buffed by Beholder, so he's probably the strongest fixer alive rn, from sheer martial power, as Gebura isn't exactly alive anymore.

And that after 3 days of nonstop fighting.

Days? The first reception, his distortion, Angela distortion, another reception (where he actually doesn't fight, just swoops in for Argalia at the end), and then the head reception, all happen one after another. Hell, they might've all happend in the span of several hours, who knows.

[Mr.Game]

Guys, do not forget that the power of library keep him basically immortal. so roland fight in librarian state is out of control (and i do not intended classing them in that scenario).

now i do consider roland can land a few hits for free, but you need to remember that his weapons still makes sound, and while i do consider he can shoot vergil, vergil can also shift his body at least slightly in the moment (either after he knows he needs to keep moving or when he sees the projectile flying toward him, if its from the front), there can also battle instinct that just warn him to move when he cannot see the enemies and there is nothing happening for a while, which should be natural as his enemies just gone and almost no sound can be heard around him.

so in the first fight, as i said roland will dominating the fight, as counter attack, luring roland to trap is basically what vergil can do, as far as i can thnk.

I should also said that the terrain is in some nest, which means in some city

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by Reptiloid:

Originally posted by Iggy the Unwise:

And that after 3 days of nonstop fighting.

Days? The first reception, his distortion, Angela distortion, another reception (where he actually doesn't fight, just swoops in for Argalia at the end), and then the head reception, all happen one after another. Hell, they might've all happend in the span of several hours, who knows.

Nah. Argalia clashes with Roland for 3 days while Angela is passed out (after Roland pulled her out of the Light.)

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by Mr.Game:

Guys, do not forget that the power of library keep him basically immortal. so roland fight in librarian state is out of control (and i do not intended classing them in that scenario).

now i do consider roland can land a few hits for free, but you need to remember that his weapons still makes sound, and while i do consider he can shoot vergil, vergil can also shift his body at least slightly in the moment (either after he knows he needs to keep moving or when he sees the projectile flying toward him, if its from the front), there can also battle instinct that just warn him to move when he cannot see the enemies and there is nothing happening for a while, which should be natural as his enemies just gone and almost no sound can be heard around him.

so in the first fight, as i said roland will dominating the fight, as counter attack, luring roland to trap is basically what vergil can do, as far as i can thnk.

I should also said that the terrain is in some nest, which means in some city

Did you just say Verg gets ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Spidey Sense for this fight? No amount of battle sense is going to warn Verg when he's about to get shot. He doesn't have precognition to tell when Roland is going to attack or from where. And if you argue that he does, then Roland ALSO does, because he's fought just as much if not longer than Verg has.

Roland's weapons make sound... but guns are guns. You're gonna hear the sound either after you're already shot, or almost EXACTLY at the same time you're getting shot. In addition, getting at least 1 free attack in for EVERY SINGLE ENGAGEMENT is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ huge. Imagine any real life swordfight, where one fighter gets a free unavoidable swing on the other for every series of attacks.

The Library makes Roland immortal, but he was also massively holding back until the fight against the Head, where he was already exhausted after fighting for days without stopping and getting the ♥♥♥♥ beat out of him during his own reception.

Roland would OBLITERATE Verg in both scenarios, without question.

[Mr.Game]

Originally posted by Terratrox:

Originally posted by Mr.Game:

Guys, do not forget that the power of library keep him basically immortal. so roland fight in librarian state is out of control (and i do not intended classing them in that scenario).

now i do consider roland can land a few hits for free, but you need to remember that his weapons still makes sound, and while i do consider he can shoot vergil, vergil can also shift his body at least slightly in the moment (either after he knows he needs to keep moving or when he sees the projectile flying toward him, if its from the front), there can also battle instinct that just warn him to move when he cannot see the enemies and there is nothing happening for a while, which should be natural as his enemies just gone and almost no sound can be heard around him.

so in the first fight, as i said roland will dominating the fight, as counter attack, luring roland to trap is basically what vergil can do, as far as i can thnk.

I should also said that the terrain is in some nest, which means in some city

Did you just say Verg gets ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Spidey Sense for this fight? No amount of battle sense is going to warn Verg when he's about to get shot. He doesn't have precognition to tell when Roland is going to attack or from where. And if you argue that he does, then Roland ALSO does, because he's fought just as much if not longer than Verg has.

Roland's weapons make sound... but guns are guns. You're gonna hear the sound either after you're already shot, or almost EXACTLY at the same time you're getting shot. In addition, getting at least 1 free attack in for EVERY SINGLE ENGAGEMENT is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ huge. Imagine any real life swordfight, where one fighter gets a free unavoidable swing on the other for every series of attacks.

The Library makes Roland immortal, but he was also massively holding back until the fight against the Head, where he was already exhausted after fighting for days without stopping and getting the ♥♥♥♥ beat out of him during his own reception.

Roland would OBLITERATE Verg in both scenarios, without question.

Dude, stop not using your brains and read, imagine and think.
I never said it is using game mechanic or whatsoever.

Instinct is not something so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awesome that having it will guaranteed victory.
its a freaking body ability to sense and conclude something is wrong before the mind notice.

"getting at least 1 free attack in for EVERY SINGLE ENGAGEMENT", and what vergil does nothing when he gets attacked and not trying something?, does he never learns and just get attacked? and why do you think getting shot will ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insta kill someone.
For ♥♥♥♥ sake, he can lure to a narrow place, or goes to a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ corner and set a random ambush attack to random place he thinks roland will run to, and just slash the place.

Also, I said vergil should know that if the enemies just gone from his sight, he should have guards up and assuming roland doesnt attack instantly it is either, he is charging towards him or taking some distance which mean it is a ranged attack and vergil should realize it.

♥♥♥♥, why you just think that all fight will done instantly. I do think that roland is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ strong but the idea of killing a freaking color fixer instantly if ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid, and the idea of a veteran unable to do something is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid.

God for ♥♥♥♥ sake, stop fangirling roland so hard you peed yourself.

[Terratrox]

It's not going to instakill someone. But being able to continuously shoot someone without them being able to do ♥♥♥♥ about it is an INSANE advantage. Especially since the gun doesn't give you away.

If we're NOT using the Perception Blocking Mask's game mechanic, we'd say that it literally makes him imperceptible, because no one in the Middle could perceive him when he tore them apart. WITH the mechanic, we're saying that 5 people, some of which are Colors or have the abilities and reflexes of Colors, couldn't keep track of Roland in an open battlefield with no cover and nothing else to focus on, to the point that he can get a free swing on them every few seconds. The mechanic is me LOWBALLING Roland.

1 attack per engagement as in 1 attack per turn. Every time there's a flurry of blows, Roland is going to get at least 1 attack off for free that Verg can't do ♥♥♥♥ about, because that's what the Perception Blocking Mask does. And that's a huge deal considering Roland's specialty gives him control over the flow of the fight. So no, Verg ISN'T going to do anything about it. Because he can't perceive it.

Instinct is a bad point to bring up, because as I said, Roland would have it too. In addition, instinct is still the result of the mind perceiving information subconsciously. If there's nothing to perceive, the instinct isn't going to do anything. Instinct would be Verg seeing a scope glare from a distance out of the corner of his eye and reacting before Roland could shoot. If Roland doesn't give anything away before the shot, there's no instinct to dodge it because there's no actionable information beyond "I'm exposed right now. I should get to cover."

When Roland disengages, he could be doing anything from lining up a ranged attack, moving to force a more favorable engagement (like getting them out into the open, or moving to an area with more cover), he could be preparing to ambush Verg, he could close the distance from a direction using his perception blocking mask... he can do all sorts of things, and NONE of them give him away ahead of time. So there's no way for Verg to know which he's doing.

I like how you go "Well Verg would be able to instinctively dodge ranged attacks" (as if that's a thing that makes any sense), and then say that Roland could be beaten by ambushing him, as if he doesn't have instincts at all.

[Minh]

Originally posted by Reptiloid:

Current state Orlando would most likely win. We didn't see much action from Vergil in comparison to him, but Roland can shoot you, stab you, slice you, blunt force trauma you, do all of the above at a single time, gains power the more moves he does, and probably fast af. Not taking into account all the properties of his mask, and possibility of fighting him on his floor in library, where he can pop the heart and, well, gg. I mean, we have him going toe to toe with an Arbiter and Claw Executioner that are buffed by Beholder, so he's probably the strongest fixer alive rn, from sheer martial power, as Gebura isn't exactly alive anymore.

Luda Beholder of the Eye buffs no one.

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by Minh:

Originally posted by Reptiloid:

Current state Orlando would most likely win. We didn't see much action from Vergil in comparison to him, but Roland can shoot you, stab you, slice you, blunt force trauma you, do all of the above at a single time, gains power the more moves he does, and probably fast af. Not taking into account all the properties of his mask, and possibility of fighting him on his floor in library, where he can pop the heart and, well, gg. I mean, we have him going toe to toe with an Arbiter and Claw Executioner that are buffed by Beholder, so he's probably the strongest fixer alive rn, from sheer martial power, as Gebura isn't exactly alive anymore.

Luda Beholder of the Eye buffs no one.

Yeah the Beholder doesn't actually buff anyone. She just tells the Head the future and oversees operations. But still, being able to fight an Arbiter and a Claw after 3 days of nonstop fighting and getting the ♥♥♥♥ kicked out of him is an insane endurance and strength feat.