Limbus Company

Limbus Company

Vayt Dec 31, 2023 @ 8:46pm
How Strong are the Sinners?
I don't mean which IDs are strong, but lore wise how strong would our crew be compared to others in universe?
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Minh Dec 31, 2023 @ 9:17pm 
Weak. Weak.
Last edited by Minh; Dec 31, 2023 @ 9:17pm
Demonking Dec 31, 2023 @ 9:38pm 
I think at this point the sinners are definitely above your average fixer. Like, significantly so. It's probably telling that most the IDs we get right now end up being regional directors and such. I'm sure most of them would get about that far on their own eventually. The problem is uh, they aren't really strong enough to make a name for themselves of anything even close to middle rank. Not yet at least, and I don't know if they'll ever get much further than that without actually manifesting their egos properly. (Which I hope will end up becoming a cool as a hell mechanic instead of just an a bonus ID. I mean IDs are nice but damn do I want to see more systems and interesting uses for base sinners.)

My guess would be they're all probably somewhere between grade 8 and Grade 6 fixers. Experienced enough to get the job done and certainly strong enough to become an issue when given an immorality pass.
Atma Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:01pm 
They have defeated a Whale which is a very high level threat.
Why, they should be promoted to colors by now!
Sofia Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:12pm 
Originally posted by Minh:
Weak. Weak.
No, not at all.

As a collective unit, with Dante supporting them, they're capable of defeating Color-level threats. Barely, let's be real, but it's not nothing. That whale was no joke.

Judging by some of their IDs, individually, they're probably anywhere between Grade 3 and 6.

I think it's worth noting that our Sinners' access to IDs and EGOs is kind of a big deal, and makes them insanely versatile. Your average fixer is just a guy with weapons and skills, maybe some cybernetics or enhancements if they can afford it, or some faction-specific gimmicks like the Liu suits. Our Sinners have access to actual, legitimate superpowers by that standard.

They're no Colors or Grade 1s yet, but I think most of them have the potential to be, if they're allowed to use their EGOs and IDs as they please.

In Library of Ruina, we've seen Fixers of almost every level. Grade 7 and 8 Fixers are basically nobodies with weapons. Even the named Fixers who hover in the 3 to 6 range are usually just people with weapons too. Badass people, but nothing more. Compare that to the EGOs our Sinners can use. It's not even a contest.
Last edited by Sofia; Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:19pm
defaultchar Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:18pm 
Y'all are massively overestimating the Sinners.

Originally posted by Sofia:
Originally posted by Minh:
Weak. Weak.
No, not at all.

As a collective unit, with Dante supporting them, they're capable of defeating Color-level threats.

We see a very clear demonstration of power levels in chapter 5, and this is just not at all true: Brother plays around then trivially crushes the sinners (They literally can't scratch his skin), then in turn gets one-shot (...from a massive distance) by a Color, who barely fights on even terms with the whale. We're not even fighting in the same League.
Last edited by defaultchar; Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:21pm
Sofia Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:21pm 
Originally posted by defaultchar:
Originally posted by Sofia:
No, not at all.

As a collective unit, with Dante supporting them, they're capable of defeating Color-level threats.

We see a very clear demonstration of power levels in chapter 5, and this is just not at all true: Brother trivially crushes them, then in turn gets crushed by a Color, who barely fights on even terms with the whale. We're not even fighting in the same League.
Not every threat can be handled by the same tactic. The Whale was, explicitly, Color-level, and our Sinners were able to handle it.

Brother might also be on that level, or he might not be, but he put all his stats in "combat monster" and it kinda happens that's not something our Sinners are great at handling yet. Keyword: yet.

High-level threats in this universe all have really specific gimmicks. It's conceptual rock paper scissors nonsense. Brother is a combat monster, the Whale was dangerous in different ways. It's just a matter of figuring out how to beat Brother, just like they figured out how to beat the Whale.

Whatever Indigo's powers are they're likely the perfect counter to Brother's high stats. It's not that they're on completely different levels, it's that Indigo probably has a special power or weapon that specifically counters Bro. Considering he's using a massive pointed crossbow, I imagine it's something like "can ignore defense". This is backed up by how he pierced through the Whale to reach the Sinners.

Indigo was CONVINCED that if he fought the Whale alongside Vergilius, one of them would die for sure. Either he was full of ♥♥♥♥, or he meant it and that Whale has a gimmick that makes it able to take on two Colors and score a kill before dying. Or maybe Indigo's powers have some kind of weird drawback where they're not as effective when in a team, but that wouldn't explain why Vergilius would be at risk too.

And we beat it. Without Dante's powers, even.
Last edited by Sofia; Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:38pm
Iggy the Unwise Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:31pm 
They are around urban plague with some ids going into urban nightmare.
Terratrox Dec 31, 2023 @ 11:59pm 
Originally posted by Sofia:
Originally posted by Minh:
Weak. Weak.
No, not at all.

As a collective unit, with Dante supporting them, they're capable of defeating Color-level threats. Barely, let's be real, but it's not nothing. That whale was no joke.

Judging by some of their IDs, individually, they're probably anywhere between Grade 3 and 6.

I think it's worth noting that our Sinners' access to IDs and EGOs is kind of a big deal, and makes them insanely versatile. Your average fixer is just a guy with weapons and skills, maybe some cybernetics or enhancements if they can afford it, or some faction-specific gimmicks like the Liu suits. Our Sinners have access to actual, legitimate superpowers by that standard.

They're no Colors or Grade 1s yet, but I think most of them have the potential to be, if they're allowed to use their EGOs and IDs as they please.

In Library of Ruina, we've seen Fixers of almost every level. Grade 7 and 8 Fixers are basically nobodies with weapons. Even the named Fixers who hover in the 3 to 6 range are usually just people with weapons too. Badass people, but nothing more. Compare that to the EGOs our Sinners can use. It's not even a contest.
Whales aren't Color level threats. The CALAMITIES are Color level threats, but average whales can be killed by whalers, and whalers aren't beyond like... grade 8 Fixer level, at best. Whalers are more or less normal people with decent training.

Even grade 9 Fixers differ from normal people in that they tend to have some form of minor augmentation. The higher the grade, the better and more augmentations they have. Verg has what amounts to car engines in his legs.

The Sinners can access EGO, but this is post-Light release in Library of Ruina. Many more people now have the ability to access an EGO or distortion form, and the EGOs they access aren't 'real' EGOs. They're borrowed via that device they used at the start of the story. In fact, it's expressly stated that they aren't capable of manifesting an EGO on their own. They don't possess the ironclad willpower to do so. But Dongrang DOES.

The SInners are probably around Rank 7 Fixers, at best. Their IDs have nothing to do with how powerful they are, because the IDs are from alternate universes. Meursalt in this universe is not capable of ever getting near R-Meursalt's abilities, because his upbringing and experiences are fundamentally different. Like how Angela was incapable of forgiving and forgetting at the end of Lobotomy Corporation.

Gregor isn't capable of ever matching his Liu self, because his Liu self has a completely different life. He got augmentations our Gregor didn't get, and training our Gregor didn't get.

Same for all the other Sinners.

Now, since the leveling and uptye systems are canonical in-world systems, the Sinners CAN become stronger. It's the in-universe explanation as for why they run Luxcavations. At the start of the story, they were at Grade 9 Fixer level. They could survive a fight with Rats alone and that's about it. Now they're around Grade 7. As Uptye and level caps increase, they're going to continue getting more powerful.
Last edited by Terratrox; Jan 1, 2024 @ 12:07am
SmallGespenst Jan 1, 2024 @ 12:10am 
LoR comparisons don't really work 'cause the power levels here are entirely different, we have Kurokumo clan on par with Blade Lineage, W-corp and RRR, and Olga is one of the stronger IDs in the game.
The Sinners are basically a threat on par with the footsoldiers of a typical organisation, hence why Little Brother/Sisters of the Middle are a fairly even fight, same as with the Twinhook goons and K-corp's troops.

Originally posted by Sofia:
And we beat it. Without Dante's powers, even.
Uh, did you forget that Dante was a required factor for the Sinners to not get pallidified? The whale only died as a result of a massive confluence of coincidences from Dante's shard preventing the factor that would've prevented without the kind of single-minded devotion that Ahab brought from reaching the Heart, to Golden Bough resonance allowing the heart to be damaged (Queequeg did explain that they couldn't damage the heart/whale) Killing the Whale isn't something that can be used to assess the strength of the Sinners any more than Kromer, who got ganked by Demian.
Last edited by SmallGespenst; Jan 1, 2024 @ 12:11am
Zalgo Jan 1, 2024 @ 12:19am 
Originally posted by SmallGespenst:
LoR comparisons don't really work 'cause the power levels here are entirely different, we have Kurokumo clan on par with Blade Lineage, W-corp and RRR, and Olga is one of the stronger IDs in the game.
The Sinners are basically a threat on par with the footsoldiers of a typical organisation, hence why Little Brother/Sisters of the Middle are a fairly even fight, same as with the Twinhook goons and K-corp's troops.

Originally posted by Sofia:
And we beat it. Without Dante's powers, even.
Uh, did you forget that Dante was a required factor for the Sinners to not get pallidified? The whale only died as a result of a massive confluence of coincidences from Dante's shard preventing the factor that would've prevented without the kind of single-minded devotion that Ahab brought from reaching the Heart, to Golden Bough resonance allowing the heart to be damaged (Queequeg did explain that they couldn't damage the heart/whale) Killing the Whale isn't something that can be used to assess the strength of the Sinners any more than Kromer, who got ganked by Demian.

This, the most accurate representation of our power levels is actually from the Blazing Bull fight in Canto 4, who was a Teth that escaped Qliphoth Deterrence. It utterly totalled the Sinners to such a degree even Dante was shocked at how outmatched they were compared. The only reason the Sinners even won was because K Corp were around to weaken it to a degree where the Sinners were capable of suppressing it.
Om3ga-Z3ro Jan 1, 2024 @ 1:53am 
People are overestimating the Sinners power, The Big Brother was able to beat whatever ID Ishmael had on out of her and that forcibly reverted her back to her default form. All of these feats that the Sinner accomplished are done with some level of assistance and not by their own strength, most of the time the story is narrated in a way that the Sinners are always dying and Dante is always bringing them back.

If they didn't have Dante's Infinite Life Hack they would've all been dead at the start of the game.
Last edited by Om3ga-Z3ro; Jan 1, 2024 @ 1:57am
Sofia Jan 1, 2024 @ 4:53am 
Originally posted by SmallGespenst:
LoR comparisons don't really work 'cause the power levels here are entirely different, we have Kurokumo clan on par with Blade Lineage, W-corp and RRR, and Olga is one of the stronger IDs in the game.
The Sinners are basically a threat on par with the footsoldiers of a typical organisation, hence why Little Brother/Sisters of the Middle are a fairly even fight, same as with the Twinhook goons and K-corp's troops.

Originally posted by Sofia:
And we beat it. Without Dante's powers, even.
Uh, did you forget that Dante was a required factor for the Sinners to not get pallidified? The whale only died as a result of a massive confluence of coincidences from Dante's shard preventing the factor that would've prevented without the kind of single-minded devotion that Ahab brought from reaching the Heart, to Golden Bough resonance allowing the heart to be damaged (Queequeg did explain that they couldn't damage the heart/whale) Killing the Whale isn't something that can be used to assess the strength of the Sinners any more than Kromer, who got ganked by Demian.
Indigo was extremely clear that Dante's time reversal wouldn't help fight the whale at all. I don't think it's a minor accomplishment in the slightest that we killed that thing without the use of hax time powers.

I also feel that people VASTLY overestimate the strength of high grade Fixers and Colors. Colors are just Grade 1 Fixers who got noticed - the power differential between them is stated to be fairly minor with a few exceptions of especially unique Colors.

And the Colors we saw in Library of Ruina, while powerful, weren't especially different from the two dozen powerful bosses fought in the game.

This isn't Dragon Ball, there's no codified power levels where the bigger number automatically wins. Project Moon's universe is full of weird, gimmicky powers that take the centerstage. You got people with gloves that make them totally silent, people with weird tattoos that make them Superman, people who can manifest EGOs, cyborgs, robots, a talking clock that can rewind time.

How strong the Sinners are is totally situational to what they're dealing with. So far it feels like they struggle with challenges that are Raw Power, but are able to overcome weirder, wonkier things where the obstacle isn't high stats but rather strange powers.

The Bull was raw stats. Big Bro was raw stats. The Whale was something else entirely. Something Indigo believed was capable of killing him or Vergilius, and yet we pulled through.

It is really weird to me that people keep citing The Lore, but toss aside what doesn't suit them. When Indigo insisted that if he fought the Whale alongside Vergilius, one of them would die for sure, that had to mean something. It's clear Indigo can overpower the Whale physically (he did it to reach the Sinners), so what was he so afraid of?

That Whale was a threat that can kill Colors in very specific circumstances. That's not nothing.
Last edited by Sofia; Jan 1, 2024 @ 4:57am
Daliena Jan 1, 2024 @ 5:01am 
Originally posted by Sofia:

How strong the Sinners are is totally situational to what they're dealing with. So far it feels like they struggle with challenges that are Raw Power, but are able to overcome weirder, wonkier things where the obstacle isn't high stats but rather strange powers.

The Bull was raw stats. Big Bro was raw stats. The Whale was something else entirely. Something Indigo believed was capable of killing him or Vergilius, and yet we pulled through.

Case in point: The Old Man of the Lake had to square the f up the old-fashioned way against Whales - whereas the Sinners, having Dantehh's protection, were able to attack it from the inside, something which would've gotten Indigo pallidified.

Of course I suspect there wouldn't have been a lot left of the Sinners if they'd had to fight the whale the same way that Indigo fought.. But, as a wise man once taught us, power equals power.

"I used to think spells equaled power, too, back when I was alive. I've learned a lot since then. You know what does equal power?

Power. Power equals power. Crazy, huh?

But the type of power? Doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It turns out, everything is oddly balanced. Weird, but true. For example:

...Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen skill checks."
Alpha Chad Jan 1, 2024 @ 7:00am 
nah i'd win
Fluffden Jan 1, 2024 @ 8:13am 
I think around Grade 6-4?
Depending on the sinner.
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Date Posted: Dec 31, 2023 @ 8:46pm
Posts: 58