Just some thoughts about Canto V story

[76561199403730936]

PM did a terrific job in building Ishmael's character. Chapter 4.5 and chapter 5 part 1 was good, chapter 5 part 2 was simply amazing (the part where the crew entered the whale's maw, Ishmael's VA literally sent me chills). But part 3 somehow almost lost all the hypes they had built up. Like I think they focus too much on Ishmael but not anyone's important to her story. If they could focus more into other characters, like how they did with Dongrang and Dongbaek (both of them are peak character design), I think chapter 5 could be much better. I really like Ahab and her manipulative tendency, and I think it's a shame that she didn't have enough screen time to be appreciated.

[jobhobster]

Factually wrong. Ahab was written REALLY well, and they built her on Ishmael obsession, since Ahab knew how to still manipulate her to achieve her goal. Other members of her crew is whatever, no one cares about them, Que-Whatever only importance was that we got buff Heath, I just happy that Ish and Ahab got some decent writing, alongside Dante becoming less of a wimp.
P.S. No idea what you talk about Dongbaek and Dongrang being peak. First one is the most whatever character with sob "I want flowers" motive, and other one is boring ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, it didn't even felt like Yi Sang actually was trying to change, he just kinda came to be an actual character now. After Canto V I have no idea how you can look back at the slog what Canto IV was, and thought "wow that was cool I want more of that"

[Iggy the Unwise]

I think they assume that you know the source book material to begin with.

[Hel Spites]

I'm going to have to disagree, I think part 3 ended really strong. We got exactly as much time with Ahab as we needed to get the point across, and, I mean, obviously it's going to focus on Ishmael, the story is about her. You're supposed to see how insidious Ahab's manipulation was through ishmael's thoughts and actions.

Throughout parts 1 and 2 you see her get more and more unhinged until you part 3 where she's practically frothing at the mouth, slavering at the thought of killing Ahab, just like Ahab is with the whale. It's supposed to underline the point that Ahab and the whale are functionally the same thing, they're both obsessive, corruptive forces that turn others into them, while not caring about anyone beyond themselves. What value would there be in showing more of Ahab? You get pretty much everything there is to get from her with the scenes they show.

The one thing I will say is that I wouldn't have said no to more screen time with Ish's old crew, but even then, they make very smart use of the limited time they've got. Starbuck and Quequeg in particular are both very likable character and you get a good feel for them despite how little screen time they get.

[Reptiloid]

Well, uh, to make it similar to Dongrang and Dongbaek, they'd need to put them right at the beginning and let them stay throughout the whole chapter

[Demonking]

Originally posted by jobhobster:

Factually wrong. Ahab was written REALLY well, and they built her on Ishmael obsession, since Ahab knew how to still manipulate her to achieve her goal. Other members of her crew is whatever, no one cares about them, Que-Whatever only importance was that we got buff Heath, I just happy that Ish and Ahab got some decent writing, alongside Dante becoming less of a wimp.
P.S. No idea what you talk about Dongbaek and Dongrang being peak. First one is the most whatever character with sob "I want flowers" motive, and other one is boring ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, it didn't even felt like Yi Sang actually was trying to change, he just kinda came to be an actual character now. After Canto V I have no idea how you can look back at the slog what Canto IV was, and thought "wow that was cool I want more of that"

To be fair his story that arc was kind of about a guy with depression so that kind of fits. Maybe it's not the best writing but the fact he felt disconnected from his own story actually works really well. Dongbaek and Dongrang were just kind of dragging him along when he didn't even really want to be alive. The fact he came into his own while fighting them was 100% a moment of someone with heavy and perpetual depression finally seeing color for the first time in a while.

It was the color red, because there was a bleeding body of his old friend on the ground in front of him, but hey it's a start!

This chapter was probably written from an easier place since we have a more traditional antagonist we're working with. It was kind of important Ishmael learn to let her go because anything other than that means a piece of her dies. These things can't be made easy though, so having the captain and every force under the sun make itself out to be something you want to kill is both important and easy to write.

[Birp]

Dongrang was developed very well. Dongbaek... hmm, well, she stabs Yisang in the chest at the end of part 1, then she completely disappears until it's time for her boss fight.

I would have liked it if she showed up a bit more in part 2, maybe show her involvement with the TLA more or show what she's up to in the present, not just her past.

As for Ahab and her crew, they don't show at all until part 3, so there's just not enough time to develop them all.

Despite that, I think Ahab was fantastic, or maybe it was her voice actor that was fantastic, but she really nailed it. How she delivered that speech about her absolute beliefs and clear-cut definitions of good and evil and stuff was just amazing.

[jobhobster]

Originally posted by Birp:

Dongrang was developed very well. Dongbaek... hmm, well, she stabs Yisang in the chest at the end of part 1, then she completely disappears until it's time for her boss fight.

I would have liked it if she showed up a bit more in part 2, maybe show her involvement with the TLA more or show what she's up to in the present, not just her past.

As for Ahab and her crew, they don't show at all until part 3, so there's just not enough time to develop them all.

Despite that, I think Ahab was fantastic, or maybe it was her voice actor that was fantastic, but she really nailed it. How she delivered that speech about her absolute beliefs and clear-cut definitions of good and evil and stuff was just amazing.

They don't appear until part 3 BUT Ish gets all the time she needs to establish problem of her arc, so you just become more invested in her, seeing how ruthless and motivated she is. I fail to see how anyone can be dissatissfied with such action driven chapter, if they're not snob pretending Yi Sang chapter was actually interesting (literally nothing actually happened until dungeon, beside we got to know Yi Sang is sad and had friends).
And I also don't get Dongrang praise. Just some smug ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, who then got sad because "boohoo I choosed prizes instead of friends", and then said ♥♥♥♥ it and manifested an E.G.O. He doesn't even play around with Yi Sang in any way, Yi Sang just kinda decides he don't want to be an emo boy for any longer, and decides to become an actual human being.
Ahab is like 10 times better than Dongrang. The way she plays with Ish, getting her on her side one more time, the way she brainwashes everyone with her talk, just to ♥♥♥♥ everyone up in the end, the VA did a fantastic job, and overall she feels like a really compelling villain. And since Ish had a buildup through whole chapter, finale of the fight feels much more deserved and nice then Canto IV one. Not through a massive wall of giberrish Yi Sang text, but through an actual action, where Ish realises she doesn't want to blindly follow Ahab anymore, she wants to be on her own, with her own goals and dreams.
Easily the best chapter for now, and makes me excited for Heath chapter, since he's too seems like a very proactive character to follow (unless he's going to sob about his girlfriend for whole chapter, that's it)

[Demonking]

I'm not going to lie, based on this discussion so far I am starting to think which chapter you like better is divided down one like: Have you had an abusive ex or boss you really wanted to punch in retrospect? You'll like chapter 5 more. Have you had major depression and spent years of your life in that state? You'll probably like chapter 4 more. You'll probably like chapter 3 much more than either of them if neither of those things are true. I think they did too good a job playing on themes that are hard to get if you haven't been in them.

[jobhobster]

Originally posted by Demonking:

I'm not going to lie, based on this discussion so far I am starting to think which chapter you like better is divided down one like: Have you had an abusive ex or boss you really wanted to punch in retrospect? You'll like chapter 5 more. Have you had major depression and spent years of your life in that state? You'll probably like chapter 4 more. You'll probably like chapter 3 much more than either of them if neither of those things are true. I think they did too good a job playing on themes that are hard to get if you haven't been in them.

Not sure about others, but I just like writing that doesn't overstay it's welcome, and does something actually exciting. Yi Sang chapter could easily be 2-3 times shorter (by cutting that useless subplot about techno people, and going to their bunker just to go back) and we wouldn't miss on anything, but they had to drag it on. I remember going into Yi Sang chapter for first two parts and being "so, will Yi Sang do something?", and no, it was just fetch quest after fetch quest.
I see it as Yi Sang chapter consisting mostly of events, that do nothing to actual story and Yi Sang character, and Ish chapter consisting of events, where Ish is either involved, or straigh out the main moving force of those events. And that's why I consider Ish chapter far better.

[Demonking]

Originally posted by jobhobster:

Originally posted by Demonking:

I'm not going to lie, based on this discussion so far I am starting to think which chapter you like better is divided down one like: Have you had an abusive ex or boss you really wanted to punch in retrospect? You'll like chapter 5 more. Have you had major depression and spent years of your life in that state? You'll probably like chapter 4 more. You'll probably like chapter 3 much more than either of them if neither of those things are true. I think they did too good a job playing on themes that are hard to get if you haven't been in them.

Not sure about others, but I just like writing that doesn't overstay it's welcome, and does something actually exciting. Yi Sang chapter could easily be 2-3 times shorter (by cutting that useless subplot about techno people, and going to their bunker just to go back) and we wouldn't miss on anything, but they had to drag it on. I remember going into Yi Sang chapter for first two parts and being "so, will Yi Sang do something?", and no, it was just fetch quest after fetch quest.
I see it as Yi Sang chapter consisting mostly of events, that do nothing to actual story and Yi Sang character, and Ish chapter consisting of events, where Ish is either involved, or straigh out the main moving force of those events. And that's why I consider Ish chapter far better.

And that's fine, but ironically that's what depression is sort of like for some people. You're just kind of existing and remembering the past. The stuff that goes on around you don't feel about you, it feels like it's about your friends and days just kind of drag on. Like, it captures the feeling of depression rather perfectly. I absolutely had days that reminded me of that chapter, where I'd sit there watching everyone else's life move forward and I wondered if I even had a place in it. The end of it where Yi sang didn't allow himself to die so his friend could move on is a perfect metaphor for breaking free from that sort of thought process.

I will admit though, chapter 5 is more enjoyable in general and had much better humor.

[jobhobster]

Originally posted by Demonking:

Originally posted by jobhobster:

Not sure about others, but I just like writing that doesn't overstay it's welcome, and does something actually exciting. Yi Sang chapter could easily be 2-3 times shorter (by cutting that useless subplot about techno people, and going to their bunker just to go back) and we wouldn't miss on anything, but they had to drag it on. I remember going into Yi Sang chapter for first two parts and being "so, will Yi Sang do something?", and no, it was just fetch quest after fetch quest.
I see it as Yi Sang chapter consisting mostly of events, that do nothing to actual story and Yi Sang character, and Ish chapter consisting of events, where Ish is either involved, or straigh out the main moving force of those events. And that's why I consider Ish chapter far better.

And that's fine, but ironically that's what depression is sort of like for some people. You're just kind of existing and remembering the past. The stuff that goes on around you don't feel about you, it feels like it's about your friends and days just kind of drag on. Like, it captures the feeling of depression rather perfectly. I absolutely had days that reminded me of that chapter, where I'd sit there watching everyone else's life move forward and I wondered if I even had a place in it. The end of it where Yi sang didn't allow himself to die so his friend could move on is a perfect metaphor for breaking free from that sort of thought process.

I will admit though, chapter 5 is more enjoyable in general and had much better humor.

I mean, it has some sense to it, but I think Canto IV then could do much more with it, since we didn't really saw other sinners do much of their own. Ish took K Corp syringe for Dante, Mersault dealt with Shee laptop, but nothing particulary exciting. I think if they made a big deal out of moments like this, with emphasis on Yi Sang being kinda there, while other performing rather better, it could be kinda neat. Kinda like they did with Ish in 4.5, when she was all gloomy, while other tried to have fun on the beach.

[Demonking]

That's a fair assessment. I definitely think the Ish moment was more setting up for this chapter than anything to do with that one but the rest of them I give you. The chapter could have been in general more fun like chapter 2 was instead of just being bleak all the time. There was certainly justification for it in the actual robot lair where abnormalities were around. Could have had something funny happy where they had to put one of more dangerous but silly ones back to sleep through means other than combat. For example Royda getting into a drinking contest with it and ending up having like 5x4 poise but 1 paralysis at the start the turn of the next 3 fights because she's still a little tipsy.

[76561199403730936]

Originally posted by jobhobster:

Originally posted by Birp:

Dongrang was developed very well. Dongbaek... hmm, well, she stabs Yisang in the chest at the end of part 1, then she completely disappears until it's time for her boss fight.

I would have liked it if she showed up a bit more in part 2, maybe show her involvement with the TLA more or show what she's up to in the present, not just her past.

As for Ahab and her crew, they don't show at all until part 3, so there's just not enough time to develop them all.

Despite that, I think Ahab was fantastic, or maybe it was her voice actor that was fantastic, but she really nailed it. How she delivered that speech about her absolute beliefs and clear-cut definitions of good and evil and stuff was just amazing.

They don't appear until part 3 BUT Ish gets all the time she needs to establish problem of her arc, so you just become more invested in her, seeing how ruthless and motivated she is. I fail to see how anyone can be dissatissfied with such action driven chapter, if they're not snob pretending Yi Sang chapter was actually interesting (literally nothing actually happened until dungeon, beside we got to know Yi Sang is sad and had friends).
And I also don't get Dongrang praise. Just some smug ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, who then got sad because "boohoo I choosed prizes instead of friends", and then said ♥♥♥♥ it and manifested an E.G.O. He doesn't even play around with Yi Sang in any way, Yi Sang just kinda decides he don't want to be an emo boy for any longer, and decides to become an actual human being.
Ahab is like 10 times better than Dongrang. The way she plays with Ish, getting her on her side one more time, the way she brainwashes everyone with her talk, just to ♥♥♥♥ everyone up in the end, the VA did a fantastic job, and overall she feels like a really compelling villain. And since Ish had a buildup through whole chapter, finale of the fight feels much more deserved and nice then Canto IV one. Not through a massive wall of giberrish Yi Sang text, but through an actual action, where Ish realises she doesn't want to blindly follow Ahab anymore, she wants to be on her own, with her own goals and dreams.
Easily the best chapter for now, and makes me excited for Heath chapter, since he's too seems like a very proactive character to follow (unless he's going to sob about his girlfriend for whole chapter, that's it)

I did like how they wrote how Dongrang being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and how Dongbaek being emotional, since that really emphasized how Yi Sang became depressed, and the way he felt so distant from the bus crew really made sense. And we did see how he was trying to change in chapter 4.5, since he was actively joining the volleyball game and he was trying to mediate between health and ish. We could see Yi sang's effort to fit in the group, even if it was awardly.
Well, I still think chapter 5 is somewhat lacking. I really like how written Ahab was, but she could use more screen time to show the manipulative side moore. And yes, we could cut chapter 4 2-3 times shorter, but we could do the same thing with chapter 5. Even if we remove the twinhook and the middle, almost nothing changed aside Healhcliff had stole a hair coupon. I just wish that they could use that time for ahab and other character.
And yeah, with how Healhcliff did in chapter 5, I am looking forward of Canto 6.

[Lethiur1]

All I'll say is that I think people are underestimating how important Queequeg was to Ishmael, all the hints and the original book characters point that they were both most likely in a relationship, we can even see it in how disraught Ishmael is when fighting Ahab's Queequeg form and the "Call me Ishmael" part after the boss fight.

I feel like she was the only crew member outside of Ahab that got developed enough, we saw her story through Ishmael's flashbacks.

[76561199403730936]

Well, the moment Ishamel threw the harpoon and Mili's high note came in, all of my disapointment was blown away.