sloshmael discussion form (previously filtered thread)

[bug]

actually this a a sloshmael discussion thread now

[Angela]

I will like to respon but there are indeed a lot of strange logic
why you comparing her to Dieci? because I don't?
Why mention to using her in lux when I never did? prob try to respon again with difreent post then I will see it.

[SpearOfLies]

引用自 Angela：

Yes but not realy? most Fight in MD2H is humans fight and hence she wont find much usefull in there, as for Abno or boss, you just spam ego. MD2H perfectly clearable with mediocre team and without a tank.
You have 45 sanity + ego giff + can stack resourse, I find Lux Abno is even harder than MD2H Abno because you will be so stack by the time you fight them
If you ever need a to slot Ishmael, that id wont be the first that come to mind as she pretty much do nothing for majority of MD2H, just bring any other of her ids and you will be in a better position, because even as Tank you don't always expect them to spam Guard 24/7 it nice when they can use Guard when it needed but for most of the time you wont need them to do that, what did she do when you dont need her to spam guard? nothing really, she just become a dead slot.

Like I said, her Tankiness will be fine if she is the only decent Tank ids, she ins't, she wasnt even her only Tremor/Rupture/Tank ids and her other 00 can do it better while still being usefull in team damage, have better status, and can tank hits.
Idk whats up with Rosespanner Gregor, in any case I did not mention him, he wasnt a tank so I wont continue this convo about him

I didn't say anything about good 00 being bad compared to 000? for once I don't even consider her as a good 00 id, if I do, why would I engage with you in the first place? this is the second time you've assumed things I didn't say in 1 post.
my point is Tank ids as a whole have some sorf of issue one way of another due to them mosly only usefull in niche situation with Sloshing Ishmael being the worse example for tank ids weakness because she pretty much will slowing down the run wherever she is present and have no other usefull utilities and pretty much a dead weight, except Dieci since she is also a tank id so me saying she only usefull in niche situation will be wrong because no she is not. That all.

The point is easier with a tank. Most of encounter that people consider hard get walled by a tank. I value that more than being slight more efficient on easy fights.

Well, you are the one that decide to bring Dieci Rodion as example. Not me. You also decide to bring tremor and laught about it and I cannot bring Rosespanner Gregor which have the same issue as Sloshing for tremor synergy?

Also I don't know why you wanted to engage this discussion. I don't even know what you wanted to prove here aside dissing Sloshmael without reason? I only said that she is one of best 00 tank IDs and the tank niche is only good on HMD2. That she is not the worse ID. There is Mariachi Sinclair, Blade Lineage Outis and N Corp Rodion that are far worse. It's not even hard to prove why they are worse. It's not even hard to prove how they slow your run harder than sloshmael. And two of them aren't even tank while the tank is the worst tank in the game. I can also make the list longer but they require too much nuances to explain why.

Also yeah, Dieci Rodion is a tank ID but 90% of people doesn't use her as tank but more something like a bruiser. I don't think anyone will bother use her guard skills to intecept an enemy attack but instead just go full offensive one sided if possible and let her aggro do the job of grabbing enemy attention. Which is the optimal play most of times so I don't see any problem with that. Her potential damage is insanely high and the game is not hard enough for her to bother use her guard. Using her as example as good tank is basically saying that all IDs need to be dps to be good. While the current game state favor dps IDs, having only dps IDs as the optimal comp is absolute boring. A lot of IDs have a lot of nuances that people miss which is what make me enjoy this game.

[Nasty_Bdfp]

引用自 Birp：

^ I don't want to defend Sloshmael, but there's a lot of strange logic.

#1. Using tanks results in slower runs, but okay? Is that supposed to negatively affect their rating? The criteria should be whether it makes the run easier, not faster.

A lot of encounters have a timer, and you can make fights much harder if you don't have enough damage. The best exemple being the Chapter 5-30 fight
For other examples, you have Fae lantern in RR2, Wayward passenger (also in RR2), Rose sign (also in RR2). But even fight like fluid sac or the wooden doll have an ultimate attack to punish you if you take too long to stagger that body part.

+ When you run multiple MD2H in a week, I assume it gets really tedious and you probably want to spend as little time as possible on each floor.

引用自 Birp：

#2. Ishmael's other 00 ids are not useful for MD2H... I occasionally use Shi Ishmael when I want to save cost... as a benchwarmer, since she's not winning any clashes on later floors. Unless she's below 50% HP but that's annoying to manage.

I've used shi in MD2H. She isn't that bad, just a bit tedious because you have to set her up at 50% hp to make her useful.
And I like using LCBB Ish in a team with Molar Outis from time to time. The damage can get really high, although she can't clash for **. Definitely not a good option, but more fun than Slosh. (imo)

引用自 Birp：

#4. It doesn't make sense to compare Sloshmael to Dieci... unless you want to compare a 00 dps, like L Faust, to R Heath or W Ryoshu.

But it does make sense, and it also does make sense to compare L Faust with R Heath.

That being said, it makes more sense to run multiple DPS in a team compared to multiple tank. You should want several DPS, you very rarely need multiple tanks. So the tank slots for team building should be more selective than your DPS slots.

引用自 Birp：

#5. In the first place, is Sloshmael bad for human fights? Possibly but that's because most 00 ids, outside the top 5 or so, are bad for human fights on later floors. If they have a high speed roll, they might be up against an enemy using a 3-4 coin skill, in which case what do you do? You can't outclash, so you use an EGO or eat damage. Sloshmael at least has a 3rd option, I would assume she can tank most multicoin skills that aren't hitting for fatal.

and by running Slosh, you have less damage, meaning the enemy will be able to attack more often before getting staggered/killed, As a result that very same scenario you described has more chance to happen/ will happen more often.

[Kildread]

Crazy coming back to this thread seeing there's still a back & forth going over Sloshing Ishmael like there's some argument to win here or somethin'.

[bug]

引用自 Kildread：

Crazy coming back to this thread seeing there's still a back & forth going over Sloshing Ishmael like there's some argument to win here or somethin'.

引用自 bugz：

actually this a a sloshmael discussion thread now

lol. lmao

[SpearOfLies]

引用自 Birp：

#5. In the first place, is Sloshmael bad for human fights? Possibly but that's because most 00 ids, outside the top 5 or so, are bad for human fights on later floors. If they have a high speed roll, they might be up against an enemy using a 3-4 coin skill, in which case what do you do? You can't outclash, so you use an EGO or eat damage. Sloshmael at least has a 3rd option, I would assume she can tank most multicoin skills that aren't hitting for fatal.

I made a lot of screenshot about sloshmael tanking Bull three coin attack for 6/7 turns on a row without healing without problem and she is just neutral resistant to blunt. My pc is not good enough to record a video about it. Also the reason she went to tank for so long was that my EGOs keep losing clash lmao so the bull never went to sorrow phase.

People really understimate how good is having more options and how good is the option to no being forced to use an EGO to answer.

引用自 Nasty_Bdfp：

引用自 Birp：

^ I don't want to defend Sloshmael, but there's a lot of strange logic.

#1. Using tanks results in slower runs, but okay? Is that supposed to negatively affect their rating? The criteria should be whether it makes the run easier, not faster.

A lot of encounters have a timer, and you can make fights much harder if you don't have enough damage. The best exemple being the Chapter 5-30 fight
For other examples, you have Fae lantern in RR2, Wayward passenger (also in RR2), Rose sign (also in RR2). But even fight like fluid sac or the wooden doll have an ultimate attack to punish you if you take too long to stagger that body part.

+ When you run multiple MD2H in a week, I assume it gets really tedious and you probably want to spend as little time as possible on each floor.

引用自 Birp：

#2. Ishmael's other 00 ids are not useful for MD2H... I occasionally use Shi Ishmael when I want to save cost... as a benchwarmer, since she's not winning any clashes on later floors. Unless she's below 50% HP but that's annoying to manage.

I've used shi in MD2H. She isn't that bad, just a bit tedious because you have to set her up at 50% hp to make her useful.
And I like using LCBB Ish in a team with Molar Outis from time to time. The damage can get really high, although she can't clash for **. Definitely not a good option, but more fun than Slosh. (imo)

引用自 Birp：

#4. It doesn't make sense to compare Sloshmael to Dieci... unless you want to compare a 00 dps, like L Faust, to R Heath or W Ryoshu.

But it does make sense, and it also does make sense to compare L Faust with R Heath.

That being said, it makes more sense to run multiple DPS in a team compared to multiple tank. You should want several DPS, you very rarely need multiple tanks. So the tank slots for team building should be more selective than your DPS slots.

引用自 Birp：

#5. In the first place, is Sloshmael bad for human fights? Possibly but that's because most 00 ids, outside the top 5 or so, are bad for human fights on later floors. If they have a high speed roll, they might be up against an enemy using a 3-4 coin skill, in which case what do you do? You can't outclash, so you use an EGO or eat damage. Sloshmael at least has a 3rd option, I would assume she can tank most multicoin skills that aren't hitting for fatal.

and by running Slosh, you have less damage, meaning the enemy will be able to attack more often before getting staggered/killed, As a result that very same scenario you described has more chance to happen/ will happen more often.

1 You are using example outside of HMD2. RR is also the worse example as that only factor high dps for fast run. More than 80% of IDs are probably not optimal for that.
Also about the fight you hidden in spoiler, sloshing mael is also extremely powerful for a mechanic that the game doesn't explain to you but she is the best at abusing as she generate aggro while attacking but she is basically immortal on that fight and you don't mind her take all the paralysis as you don't plan for her to win the fight. This is a small and unique scenario. Not worth to uptie her just for that as already mention previously I don't mind putting her on F tier for general use. But she is not a deadweight for that fight.

2 Fun is pretty subjective. I enjoy having a tank bully floor 5 bosses. The "worst" fight people will assume is MFE but I still bully him without problem.

4 The only comparison that make sense between L Corp Faust and R Corp Cliff is if it's worthy to pay 100 cost for it. Outside of that why do you want to compare them when R Corp Cliff is clearly way better?

Also we never claim that we need multiple tank in the party. I usually bring a hard tank (sloshingmael) and a someone with decent guard skill that can bring a lot of utility to the party. More than that is totally not optimal. Also being optimal with team slot, you are forced to bring 00s anyway so spending the tank slot on the 00 than the 000 is more optimal.

5 Except that is a flawed argument? Sure, if you can win all the clashes, then what you said it's perfectly logical but we are talking about hmd2 performance which not always allow you to win clashes.

Human fights are extremely snowbally. Killing one or two enemies and the fight is already won by negative sanity. Having someone missing their kill is not a huge deal. Losing the clash and get ORKO is the absolute worse. Tank IDs can just guard to not harm the team. If the damage is too high, you can use EGO like any other IDs. Having the option to save EGO sin resources for this kind of scenario and having zero risk is one of their biggest boon.

Using a boss fight as example, the simplest to explain and one of the most hated: Bull.
That fight is continuous 4 high clash attacks. Are you going to spam 4 EGOs every turn? What happen if you get unlucky because your sanity wasn't particulary high? What happen if you run out of Sin resources because you spam EGOs without care? What happen if you didn't found any Sin resource generator EGO gift? Are you going to reset until you get lucky? I personally just use the hard tank to deal with the 3 coin attacks and the soft tank to deal with the single coin attack that you don't need to win clash to get him on sorrow phase. It require so much less Sin resources and sanity.

Now, there are IDs that can solo that fight without problem, but I just want to prove tank IDs in HMD2 reduce the risk way more than raising it.

引用自 Kildread：

Crazy coming back to this thread seeing there's still a back & forth going over Sloshing Ishmael like there's some argument to win here or somethin'.

We have time to waste yes. Anyone that join at this point is basically someone that want to waste time on pointless discussion.

[Sofia]

引用自 SmallGespenst：

引用自 SpearOfLies：

W Hong Lu is the only that I considered the better tank.
I never actually consinder Zwei Faust as tank. Less consistent aggro but more consistent speed and better resistance spread.(I may suggest her more when people ask me what 00 should they train) I can see her being better tank than Sloshmael. I will give you that.
But not lccb mael. Same speed, worse clash, less consistent aggro. She is far better when you don't need a tank but she is worse if you want to use her as tank.

It's very funny to describe someone as "better when you don't need a tank" because you never need a tank. The combination of Clash based combat and staggering means that Offence is defence, and taking a tank means having one less character dealing damage. Sloshmeal is basically embodies this most clearly 'cause she's profoundly mediocre at anything that isn't taking punches. she's a dead slot in regular battles and her contributions in regular battles can summarised as "well you won't need to win clashes while she survives. or you could just do clashes, get SP to do EGOs and still not take damage."

This is such a critical misunderstanding of the game mechanics I don't know where to start.

Tanks allow you to ignore enemy slots and hyperfocus a slot you would not have been able to normally due to needing to clash. Refraction Railway 2 has several encounters where, to get a low turn count, you want to pray for good target RNG so skills target your tanks and you can completely ignore them/not clash and focus on breaking a part.

Tanks are not useless, you just aren't using yours correctly.

For story content/Mirror Dungeon tanks aren't as useful, but for challenge runs like Railway, tanks can make or break a fight.

[SmallGespenst]

引用自 Sofia：

引用自 SmallGespenst：

It's very funny to describe someone as "better when you don't need a tank" because you never need a tank. The combination of Clash based combat and staggering means that Offence is defence, and taking a tank means having one less character dealing damage. Sloshmeal is basically embodies this most clearly 'cause she's profoundly mediocre at anything that isn't taking punches. she's a dead slot in regular battles and her contributions in regular battles can summarised as "well you won't need to win clashes while she survives. or you could just do clashes, get SP to do EGOs and still not take damage."

This is such a critical misunderstanding of the game mechanics I don't know where to start.

Tanks allow you to ignore enemy slots and hyperfocus a slot you would not have been able to normally due to needing to clash. Refraction Railway 2 has several encounters where, to get a low turn count, you want to pray for good target RNG so skills target your tanks and you can completely ignore them/not clash and focus on breaking a part.

Tanks are not useless, you just aren't using yours correctly.

For story content/Mirror Dungeon tanks aren't as useful, but for challenge runs like Railway, tanks can make or break a fight.

I'm pretty sure if you need to reset-scum ideal targeting logic you're getting into the kind of ♥♥♥♥ PM actively removed for RR2, like resetting for a 6+ Suppression. If you need to resort to citing exploits to make your point; you don't have a point.
Tanks aren't useless, but the only ones worth using are ones like Deici Rodion or K-Hong Lu, good damage dealers that can take a punch, but you're still not going to actively defend unless your Rodion drew the dreaded triple S1.
When the only tanks that are worth using are incidental tanks, that's not a demonstration of the value a tank brings, it's a statement that tanks only really justify their slot when there's no cost to taking one.

[Kay-N]

Slopmael is my wife.