Why firing the illustrator is a urgent issue impacting the Korean community

[alicefromaliceland]

Before We start...

First off, I want to inform you that I'm not going to focus on feminism itself. Because this is way worse than "Is feminism good or bad" question a lot of foreign fans were expecting in the conversation.

Since the reason why the illustrator was fired is connected to feminism, it is impossible for me to exclude it within the discussion.
But I am not going to focus this issue on feminism because I noticed a few group of people were trying to cloud the issue with "The illustrator was fired because she violated the company policy", and a lot of people have already noted how feminism has to do with all these.

Timeline

So, I am going to point out some important aspects that we have to know about before getting into the main subject.

1. A group of people from "디시인사이드"(Korea's internet forum also known as DC) tried to crawl through the illustrator's SNS to find evidence they can lashout her in order to controll over Project Moon.
   
2. They found deleted tweets of her retweeting or being mentioned on the thread in some posts connected to feminism.
   
3. Those "evidences" were actually made at least 5 years ago, when she was underage, and were deleted 2 years before she was hired to PM in 2021(worked for 2 years fulltime)
   
4. People from DC came to the company without notice, and protested about the current issue going on. They(People who went to the office) later mentioned it was a peaceful, unofficial conference.
   
5. After Project Moon posted an announcement that they acknowledge the current issue in July 25, 8:46 PM(KST), they fired the story illustrator on phone, at 11PM(KST).
   
6. In 12:00PM, PM's director and representative(Kim Jihoon) have posted a patchnote and an announcement of the illustrator being terminated due to the violation of the company policy.
   
7. This announcement was only made in Korean language.

The summed-up version of the announcement, company policy and the dispotion of the illustrator is as follows:

1. PM, from the beginning of the company, has not conducted any ideological vertification activities towards individual employee's ideology or SNS activities.
   
2. The company repeatdly requested(By company messenger and verbaly) all employees to eliminate the possibilaty of their person SNS accounts(That could cause social controversy) being connected to the company since the individual's thought might be representited as the company's oppinion and can undermine their collegues and company operation.
   
3. The controversial illustrator posted the nickname of their personal SNS account, while PM already asked them not to be connected to controvercial activities that can damage the company as mentioned.
   
4. In this process, asking for further confirmation of whether there were any specific social controversies related to the SNS was an ideological verification act, so no additional confirmation was made.
   
5. In conclusion, from chapter 5, her work will not be included in the game.
   
6. Apart from this, the official work was made by him(Kim Jihoon) and the story team to express the worldview for the company. It is judged the existing work didn't retained something linked to social controversy, so they decided to leave it be and put more effort on making future chapters, but will replace the drawings on the main UI with time.
   
7. The contract with the controversial employee will be terminated because it is a violation of the internal rules that the company mentioned repeatably. Do not use verbal violence or threats in online and offline to her.
   
8. PM apologized for making users who wanted to fully enjoy contents of PM, instead of external issues.
   
9. "Once again, I will request the members that PM will not be involved in any SNS activities at the company level, but to be careful not to be connected to the company."

Important part from the Time Line

And between all of this timeline, the part we have to pin out is:

• She was hired as an full-time employee after the probationary period of 3 months in 2021.
  
• Project Moon terminated her for a retweet she deleted before she was hired, but was "discovered" by crawlers later on.
  
• There aren't any strict definition of "Controvercial acts and violations" that can ruin the company image.
  
• Their compay policy is not protecting the employees, but rather chaining their rights.
  
• NO ADDITIONAL VERTIFICATION WAS MADE in the process of making her dismissal.

Urgent for being illegal

Now, here is why this situation is a urgent thing in Korea. Firing her with a phone like that was violating a law "higher" than the "company policy", which was "The Labor Standards Act" of Korea.

All companies equal to or over 30 people can't fire someone by a phonecall(Or other ways that are not done face-to-face) without notice within 30 days, due to LABOR STANDARDS ACT 27 IF not in the exceptions of;

1. An employee worked less than 3 months,
   
2. When the company can't get the business going due to critical circumstances,
   
3. Where a worker intentionally causes enormous disruption to the business or property damage, and falls under the grounds prescribed by Ordinance of the Ministry of Employment and Labor.

And because of the LABOUR STANDARDS ACT 23:
The employer can't terminate, leave of absence, suspence, reduce salary, or other punishment(hereinafter referred to as "Unfair dismissal, etc") to an employee without justifiable grounds.

Here's the thing, if the company policy justifying termination makes a contradiction with the law, it has invalidity towards the reason to fire someone.
Which means, even if the crawlers have dug upto her SNS and have found proof, it can't be the reason for firing her since it was deleted long before she was hired, and the Labor Standards Act proves this is an "Unfair dismissal".
And this means despite the fact the representative was not in Korea, this action can't be justified since all legal termination has to be done face-to-face.

Supplementary Explanation (Added in 2023/07/30)

Unfortunately, it seemed like my explanation didn't clarify enough about the urgency Koreans are facing. (This incident was on the Korean news, both press and TV.)
So I decided to add more details about how this can be a precedent intimidating not only the game industry, but the whole labor community in Korea.
Also, I would like to add why some Korean fans are telling overseas fans to stop playing this game.

let's first summarise. Company policy was over the law. The deleted SNS work was justified to fire someone WITH the company policy and a dismissal notification that was made by a phone call. The company is NOT posting a global announcement of the previous post NOR a new post that is correcting their previous post.

If Project Moon doesn't deal with this situation:

1. Other companies will also be able to fire their employees with any excuses.
   
2. The rights of the workers will collapse.
   
3. No matter what the company do, it will be okay to earn money if they hide it from people who will never care about this situation, and/or play the game.

I will give you a little extreme example.

Imagine if you have written "mom didnt gib me candy. i hate mom." in a diary made when you were 4 years old.

Now, you are currently 22 years old, and have ripped that diary into pieces long before you were hired by that company.

One day, your company's CEO called you and said;
"Hey, you're fired. You violated the company policy, which is to 'Respect your parents.', but it seems like you hated your mother, according to this ripped piece of information made 18 years ago, and was ripped 8 years ago. This can only mean one thing. You tried to fake your personal information before coming into the company. I never made fact-checks about this, and the company policy was updated to include that context not too long ago, but I never 'intended' to fire you, so this is not a wrong thing to do. "

And if I make this example more intense, you may have never written a diary in your life. Maybe the CEO has faked, or counterfeited the excuse to fire you.

There was a comment questioning whether Korea's labor laws are better than the US. Whatever country you live in, the law always changed to adapt to the world you are currently living in.
For Korea, they didn't add the 30 days before dismissal or money equivalent, or can't "Unfairly make a dismissal" at first.
But they have amended the law because the companies(or employers) were punishing and/or using them as a sawtooth-wheel instead of a worker.

This decision of PMoon is reverting the entire country, and what the workers tried to keep to live as human beings. And this is why the Korean fans and people are mad, since almost all of them are working to support their lives and were spending money they have made to PM.

Now, I'll ask a question to the fans. What do you think will fall on the grounds of 'success or failure of a mobile app/game'?

Mobile apps(or similar) use MAU and DAU(Monthly Active Users / Daily Active Users) to measure their success or failure. (And also, steam has a graph that indicates the current playing users.)

The reason why mobile games have the 'Daily checkin' is that the total amount of users who steadily play the game can estimate the potential sales.

If the fans overseas continue to play & purchase after the current issue, it is likely for PM to abandon Korean fans and see global fans as a moneybag. (They have already abandoned their X account (previously Twitter) for 5 days)
This will also leave a dangerous precedent that will allow companies to earn money without caring about the law, or the employee's rights in the company.

But if the global fans also join this, there is a higher chance for PM to react to the current issue, or at least post a global announcement.

(Whether you haven't been playing the game or not, it's okay! But please do not spread hate speech or run over to a fight! You can't determine others' thoughts to be good or bad, so it is important to take a deep breath and respect others before you try to speak out loud!)
(Okay, that's all I have to say! the rest of the debate is same as before!)

In Summery:

No, PM did NOT fired her to protect the illustrator and the employees. As shown in the announcement, they tried to cover-up the unfair treatment with the "Company Policy".

Do you know why they still haven't made the global announcement yet? Because they just made an illigal dismissal, and are trying to hide it from the fans from overseas, who will just ignore about the event happened in Korea and happily enjoy the game and spend money on it.
How? By those "Group Of People" who are nagging for others to fight, spreading rumors and false information towards people, that can easily make people think 'Ugh, this is a Korea's feminist problem again. I don't want to get into a group of tiring weirdos.', and make people fight with eachother instead of knowing the truth.

I know there are people who still tried to believe PM and their work, But unfortunetly, the representitive of Project Moon, Kim Jihoon listened to the ruffians who suddenly crashed into the office, over a employee worked for 2 years with him.

--------This is just my personal oppinion---------

This is painful. I really loved Project Moon's games.

I loved their game since Lobotomy Corporation was a graduation project started from a group of college/universaty students.

The total hours I have played their games(Lobotomy Corporation, Library of Luina, Limbus Company) on steam add upto 900+ ONLY on steam, because if I include other stuff like Lobotomy Corp's early stage(which wasn't on steam at that time), WonderLab, Leviatan, Distortion Detective, etc, it will easily pass 2000+ hours I've spent on their worldview, along side with all the money I spent to the company.

But the reason why I could've enjoyed their games despite the gore and dystopian world was because it was a fictional setting.
I thought Project Moon was the one who could have at least say that these issues in game can't be justified in real life.

Here is a context made from chapter 4 part 3.

Alfonso: Everything happened in K Corp. today was single-handedly caused by a mentally unstable, rebelious employee named Dongrang...
Ismael: ...Are you sure you're okay with that cover-up story? He may have opposed us... but he was your employee, wasn't he?
Alfonso: Well... I did say my goodbyes with a phonecall earlier. Some cheeky man he was.
~~~
Alfonso: If you want to be a leader, you'd best remember to nip any rising its problem in its bud. The Faster, the better.

Seriously, If you just change K Corp. into Korea, Alfonso to Kim Jihoon, make Ismael(who was the one embarked this whole stuff aboard) question about this whole things, there is no difference from the whole situation. Who could have ever knew the representative's reflection was the evil gal instead of the main protagonists?

Oh, and my reaction?

Dante: <Screw yourself.>

Please, Project Moon.
You're moto of Limbus Company is FACE THE SIN, SAVE THE EGO.

Please Face your sin you've made by writing the global annoucement and re-employeeing the illustrator.
And also, do NOT save and feed the ego of those rediculus people that are descriminating people for sports.

[【Silver】]

It'd be great if they can somehow amend the situation and keep the illustrator, even if it's unlikely I want to be optimistic in that aspect. Between the hasty and unanswered actions, and just in general losing a core illustrator, the impact and damage will be more than noteworthy even after this situation simmers down. These two aspects have probably affected their actual loyal fanbase the most, and it's worrying wondering if it might even cause ripples within the company itself considering the kind of art the create through their works.

It really is ironic though how this situation can be referenced to in their own works, in multiple scenes from Library of Ruina & Limbus Company...

[Yerc2]

This was a lose-lose situation for PM and the artist no matter what they did.
I also think it's silly to blame an individual for something they did as kids, and that cancel culture is bad. Doubly-so since the messages were deleted.

But the alternative would be for PM to keep someone employed that has a history of sharing phrases and messages that are also shared by what are essentially the most notorious hate/discriminatory groups in Korea.

We see this kind of cancel-culture thing happen in Western culture all the time over even less substantial [non]issues. It happens to athletes, game devs, actors, ect...
Given how more intense and deeply-rooted misandry is(or has been) in the social/political climate of Korea, I think it's understandable for there to be bigger pushback for things in relation to it.

I'm not saying I condone any of the actions that have occurred. I just think it helps to try to understand the relevant context of the situation, and the motives behind actions~

[Reptiloid]

I am 100% sure they didn't fire her directly. Probably threatened her somehow so she terminetd the contract herself. It is impossible to fire someone without prior notice, like, nowhere rn. Corporate sleezebags, just like all the rest.

[Bishop]

Originally posted by Reptiloid:

I am 100% sure they didn't fire her directly. Probably threatened her somehow so she terminetd the contract herself. It is impossible to fire someone without prior notice, like, nowhere rn. Corporate sleezebags, just like all the rest.

They probably didn't fire her at all yet. They notified her at 11 pm that her contract will be terminated but they can't just fire her at will without breaking the law. But its just a matter of time when she will receive the notice.

I'm more interested how they gonna justify that. That company rule she broke from her retweets she both made as an underage 6 years ago AND already deleted before even starting working there sounds like a load of bull to me. They may try to negotiate with her or try to push it through but that's gonna be messy probably.

Honestly screw them. This case already caused some big uproar in Korea from what I noticed, so she may actually get some justice for all this crap that happened to her.

[Jalor]

Originally posted by Rookery:

The "fired at 11PM by phone" is now proven to be a lie though?

The article edited it to just say that they *notified* her by phone at 11PM, because they are still planning to formally terminate her in writing beyond that (which the article in question always mentioned.) There's no question about it being done in that time frame or actually being termination - because PM themselves said so in the notice.

[P51mus]

So, Korea has better employment law than the US? 30 days notice required no matter what.

[【Silver】]

Originally posted by P51mus:

So, Korea has better employment law than the US? 30 days notice required no matter what.

Not really, we don't have too dissimilar legal course in the US. There's plenty of loopholes with contracts usually and company policies, and often times people don't realize what their rights are or that they can pursue potential legal retribution. It's really dependent on circumstances and legal writing though, a big reason why lawyers are so expensive.

[Fluffden]

TLDR, i'm rolling gacha.

[Silver l>>>]

Originally posted by Yerc2:

This was a lose-lose situation for PM and the artist no matter what they did.
I also think it's silly to blame an individual for something they did as kids, and that cancel culture is bad. Doubly-so since the messages were deleted.

But the alternative would be for PM to keep someone employed that has a history of sharing phrases and messages that are also shared by what are essentially the most notorious hate/discriminatory groups in Korea.

We see this kind of cancel-culture thing happen in Western culture all the time over even less substantial [non]issues. It happens to athletes, game devs, actors, ect...
Given how more intense and deeply-rooted misandry is(or has been) in the social/political climate of Korea, I think it's understandable for there to be bigger pushback for things in relation to it.

I'm not saying I condone any of the actions that have occurred. I just think it helps to try to understand the relevant context of the situation, and the motives behind actions~

Been thinking the same
But also the posivility they could arange with the artist and dismiss them with a good severance or keep her but not ianaunced "officially"
one thing is what the company say, other what it does

[Silver l>>>]

Originally posted by Jalor:

Originally posted by Rookery:

The "fired at 11PM by phone" is now proven to be a lie though?

The article edited it to just say that they *notified* her by phone at 11PM, because they are still planning to formally terminate her in writing beyond that (which the article in question always mentioned.) There's no question about it being done in that time frame or actually being termination - because PM themselves said so in the notice.

so they are keeping with the 30 days? this would have been first notification not downright dismissal

[Topiocalizuzumab]

suddenly people are experts in Korean labor laws. *grabs popcorn*

[bird5397]

(Not writing, but for the rest of the audience)
you don't mind getting fired for having a problem with your social media record before you went to work? Even just by sharing?

There is a risk that this case will be applied to the entire Korean labor community. Or it could be exported. This is because the company is now aiming to enter other countries.

If this company's method is applied, any company that wants an employee will be able to fire at any time if it comes up with one thing that could be a problem by going through all of the past SNS.

I can give you a dismissal notice when you're off work or when you're sleeping. That, too, says your ideas are strange and can threaten, control, and operate you like a dictatorship.

This game is trying to bring their dystopia directly into reality. Not playing games can be protecting your job.

[Topiocalizuzumab]

Originally posted by bird5397:

(Not writing, but for the rest of the audience)
you don't mind getting fired for having a problem with your social media record before you went to work? Even just by sharing?

There is a risk that this case will be applied to the entire Korean labor community. Or it could be exported. This is because the company is now aiming to enter other countries.

If this company's method is applied, any company that wants an employee will be able to fire at any time if it comes up with one thing that could be a problem by going through all of the past SNS.

I can give you a dismissal notice when you're off work or when you're sleeping. That, too, says your ideas are strange and can threaten, control, and operate you like a dictatorship.

This game is trying to bring their dystopia directly into reality. Not playing games can be protecting your job.

Ehhhh, I mean, we started cancel culture before cancel culture was even a thing.

[Kalder (Totally a Hobb)]

I really hope they revert the firing to avoid further legal consequences, besides, the artist clearly didn't violate company policy since stuff was deleted years before joining PM, the CEO just panicked and did what he thought most people would like, which is very funny considering global fans were just clowning on the whole issue from the get go, then really got involved when the facts became clear.

Its ♥♥♥♥ seemingly everywhere in the world you can get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up by something you said years ago when you were a totally different person (in this case a minor)

[76561199403730936]

Everyone, as a teenager, did 1- 2 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ or maybe more in our life. And now of they can’t fire anyone just because of unrelated tweets they did many years ago, basically PM just fall into the hands of the protesters. I really love PM games and really hope they stay out of political bs.