Plot point/hole in Throné's story *SPOILERS*

[MrTherandomguy42]

So, this is something that has been bothering me in Throné's story for quite a bit now:

We know that Marietta at first had a baby with Father/Sebastian before having another with Claude, which we know was Throné and then Marietta allegedly killed the baby she had with the former, leading to her death.

What particularly bothers me though, is during Mother's boss fight, she claims she had Marietta set up and killed. It got me thinking, how exactly? My theory is that Mother was the one who actually killed Marietta and Sebastian's baby and pinned the blame on the former. Leading to Father killing Marietta out of despair (as if Marietta leaving him for Claude wasn't enough). Otherwise, how else would Mother have been able to "set her up" as she claims?

[Peconomusm]

Crick was criminally under used. I would play a game with Crick in it. He had main character vibes.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Peco:

Crick was criminally under used. I would play a game with Crick in it. He had main character vibes.

Well said. I'd say though the one character they could of done more with? Alpates from the Temenos and Throné Crossed Path. We learn during the finale that she was a member of the Lineage of Light and therefore rather important to the narrative as she provides the travelers with the mirror used to relight the four Sacred Flames. My main issue with her, is her severe lack of screentime. While alive, she gets...one cutscene and is found dead at the start of the second part of said Crossed Path, leaving Elena as the sole surviving member of the Lineage of Light (at least bloodline wise, also it is heavily implied Hikari's mother Kura was also part of the same group). To me, she gets about as much screentime as Petrichor, and both characters are rather important to the overarching narrative. Personally, considering she essentially spent her entire life in a small room in the Cathedral rafters, I was kinda hoping she got a bit more to her character such as seeking a purpose in life after completing her mission. Instead we got, whoops! She dead now. But at least she made sure the travelers found the sacred mirror! I just think that she could of been done way better.

[Darkstar77]

I think what happened with Crick had a harder impact because he felt like a main character archtype. The naive rising to the occasion but in this case he was unlucky.

Throne's route is all over the place. Did Marietta kill her baby because she knew it was born out of incest but isn't that the same with bearing a child from Claude? I really feel like Claude ruins Throné's route especially since Sebastian has the same motivation as to being killed by their "daughter."

Alpates was part of the Lumina clan like Rita(Osvald's wife) right? I thought Dolcinaea at first was part of that clan but her last name ended as Luciel. It could have been another connection to the main plot but no. Speaking of which it would have been more interesting if Tanzy's group told Agnea of her departure/disappearance instead of them performing at the docks without any worry. I knew it was suppose to be a surprise but my final quests mop up made me realize some characters were missing and were most likely plotting.

[dshamz_]

Originally posted by MrTherandomguy42:

Originally posted by Crystal1501:

...So basically every major character we met is either insane or unknowingly a tool...
Wow. Is there ANYONE we met who's 'normal'?

Apparently so. Although there are a number of characters, specifically some of the side characters in each protagonist's journey who aren't evil/insane or are pure tools. Here is one example that are my favorites from each of the character stories, with the exception of Ochette's, Castti's, and Throne's. Those three stories don't have any characters that particularly resonate with me (the characters from both Castti and Throne story I like the most are Trousseau and Father/Sebastian who are definitely both insane/evil). Although I do like both of the chosen animal companions for Ochette, Akala/Mahina. Speaking of, if you are wondering what ever happened to the companion you don't choose, it was engulfed by the Shadow (something that is mentioned in several of the characters' stories that seems to a magic source that probably comes from Vide) and ended up in possession of the Dark Hunter Petrichor, it was then given ten years of brutal torturing and also twisted into a horrible monstrosity via Harvey's experiments, putting into a state where it just hated everything, all so Petrichor would have it tear her apart and that is how she sacrifices herself to douse the Sacred Flame on Toto'haha.

Anyway, here are my favorite aforementioned side characters that are genuinely good people by the end:

Osvald's: Emerald. We can learn by both scrutinizing him when he parts with Osvald and during a side story you can finish in the late game ("The Washed Up Letter" to be precise) that the reason why he was imprisoned in the first place was because Emerald was a skilled manipulator who got involved with the wrong people and ended up having his wife and daughter killed because of it. He not only regrets his actions, but the reason why he was collaborating with Osvald because he wanted to see his mother Ruby in Timberain again (probably the only family he had left). Sadly the escape didn't go as planned and he could of betrayed Osvald and escaped himself (since it was virtually impossible for them to both escape alive) but remember when he asked Osvald if he actually killed his wife and daughter? He came to realize that Osvald was probably innocent and imprisoned on false charges. In his final letter to his mother he says he wanted Osvald to live stating that "He's like me, but different." So he burned down the vessel that him and Osvald were going to escape in, essentially faking the latter's death while Osvald got away safely on an ice boat. It's actually pretty heartbreaking when you think about it.

Partitio: Alrond. He is not only my favorite side character in Partitio's story, but also the entire game. While he is a wealthy noble, he genuinely wanted to help both his town of Wellgrove and Partitio's cause. My favorite moment with him is at the end of Partitio's story when after Roque refuses to accept the check of 80,000,000,000 leaves from Partitio denying its legitimacy, saying he would only accept cash, Alrond literally shows up in his vessel with the 80,000,000,000 leaves in full. Also he has some sweet backstory with how ended up hiring his butler Misha in a post story sidequest.

Agnea: She actually has quite a few characters in her story I like quite a bit that it is hard to pick. I'd say it's between the tavern owner Gil from Chapter 2, Giselle from Chapter 3, or even the main antagonist of Angnea's story, Dolcinea. Yes the famous dancer is utterly vain and selfish, but she becomes a lot nicer after she loses to Agnea during the Festival of Grace (plus I wouldn't call her just plain evil unlike some of the other villains). Also she seems to actually care about and appreciate her bodyguard Veronica.

Temenos: Crick. I don't know if you made it as far as Temenos' third chapter of the Stormhail Route. But if you have at least seen his second chapter, you can probably guess why I like him quite a bit. In the Stormhail chapter though, him and Temenos have a good scene with each other with the former talking about his past and how he came to be in the Sacred Guard. Apparently it started when the previous Inquisitor, Temenos's missing friend Roi paid him a visit and gave him something to believe in. Sadly when Temenos goes to get some rest for the night, he goes to investigate the truth behind the murder plot alone which leads him to finding the Book of Night in the secret basement beneath the Sacred Guard Headquarters. He is then murdered by Kaldena for "knowing too much" :(

Hikari: Rai Mei. Probably Hikari's one true friend. I explained a bit about her backstory in a different response. She only opposes Hikari in his 4th Chapter because Mugen had an iron tight grip on Clan Mei, and was afraid what he would do to her clan had she defied him. After a fierce battle between Hikari and Rai Mei at the end of Chapter 4, Hikari leaves with some parting words, hoping she would join his cause in liberating Ku from Mugen's grasp. Which she eventually does during Hikari's final chapter.

There are a few other characters I liked, but I just wanted to list my favorites.

Agree with you that Hikari's Ch. 4 is maybe the best in the game - the showdown with Rai Mei while Critical Clash II plays during the fight is a big moment and really well executed, including the writing.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Darkstar77:

I think what happened with Crick had a harder impact because he felt like a main character archtype. The naive rising to the occasion but in this case he was unlucky.

Throne's route is all over the place. Did Marietta kill her baby because she knew it was born out of incest but isn't that the same with bearing a child from Claude? I really feel like Claude ruins Throné's route especially since Sebastian has the same motivation as to being killed by their "daughter."

Alpates was part of the Lumina clan like Rita(Osvald's wife) right? I thought Dolcinaea at first was part of that clan but her last name ended as Luciel. It could have been another connection to the main plot but no. Speaking of which it would have been more interesting if Tanzy's group told Agnea of her departure/disappearance instead of them performing at the docks without any worry. I knew it was suppose to be a surprise but my final quests mop up made me realize some characters were missing and were most likely plotting.

By the way, I don't think Marietta was related to Father or Claude. Just before their final battle, Claude tells Throne that she is the fourth of his children to make it that far, and that the other three died by his hand. And we know for a fact Claude did not kill Marietta.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Darkstar77:

I think what happened with Crick had a harder impact because he felt like a main character archtype. The naive rising to the occasion but in this case he was unlucky.

Throne's route is all over the place. Did Marietta kill her baby because she knew it was born out of incest but isn't that the same with bearing a child from Claude? I really feel like Claude ruins Throné's route especially since Sebastian has the same motivation as to being killed by their "daughter."

Alpates was part of the Lumina clan like Rita(Osvald's wife) right? I thought Dolcinaea at first was part of that clan but her last name ended as Luciel. It could have been another connection to the main plot but no. Speaking of which it would have been more interesting if Tanzy's group told Agnea of her departure/disappearance instead of them performing at the docks without any worry. I knew it was suppose to be a surprise but my final quests mop up made me realize some characters were missing and were most likely plotting.

In regards of Dolcinea, I always thought that she gave herself the surname "Luciel." Considering she was an orphaned street rat from the town of Sai. She even says herself that she can't remember her parents faces and that she refused to even consider that Sai was her hometown. The idea that she may have had the same blood as Rita or Alpates actually sounds interesting. But considering what happened to Alpates, Kura, and Rita (my theory that Kura was part of the same Lineage is based on Mugen's dialog after the first phase of the fight against him, with him stating that Kura was part of a clan that long ago attempted to save the world and that the light of her bloodline lived on through Hikari, kinda sounds like the Lineage of Light if you ask me), there is a strong possibility that Mugen or the Moonshade Order would of had her assassinated ASAP. And a ton of people in Solista know her due to her status as a famous dancer. If it weren't for that though, I'd say it's a solid theory!

[Darkstar77]

Originally posted by MrTherandomguy42:

By the way, I don't think Marietta was related to Father or Claude. Just before their final battle, Claude tells Throne that she is the fourth of his children to make it that far, and that the other three died by his hand. And we know for a fact Claude did not kill Marietta.

I see good point. I guess no regular Blacksnake could make it to him but rather the heirs he produces. Then Marietta is just a b***h. Damn Thronè route is always meant just to be hell. I think Claude would be better if he was collecting dark weapons for Arcanette but not as shocking or interesting. The Vide vessel thing is never brought up again or explained.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Darkstar77:

Originally posted by MrTherandomguy42:

By the way, I don't think Marietta was related to Father or Claude. Just before their final battle, Claude tells Throne that she is the fourth of his children to make it that far, and that the other three died by his hand. And we know for a fact Claude did not kill Marietta.

I see good point. I guess no regular Blacksnake could make it to him but rather the heirs he produces. Then Marietta is just a b***h. Damn Thronè route is always meant just to be hell. I think Claude would be better if he was collecting dark weapons for Arcanette but not as shocking or interesting. The Vide vessel thing is never brought up again or explained.

Yes, I can agree that Marietta is a cheating b**ch. And as I may of pointed out at the start of the thread, during the boss fight against Mother, she claims that she had Marietta set up and killed so she could take her place as co-leader of the Blacksnakes. What frustrates me is that we never actually get the full context of her claim. Did Marietta actually kill the baby that she and Father had? Or perhaps maybe Mother actually did and pinned the crime on Marietta? Marietta could of also just killed the baby as Father said and Mother just took advantage of his grief so he could ambush and kill her, with Mother proceeding to taunt Marietta during her final moments. Regardless of everything, we do know Marietta willingly left Father for Claude as we see a vision of the two together with an infant Throne, at the same church where Marietta and Sebastian swore to love each other forever no less...

That is another issue I have with Throne's story, how little we actually learn about her birth mother.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Darkstar77:

Originally posted by MrTherandomguy42:

By the way, I don't think Marietta was related to Father or Claude. Just before their final battle, Claude tells Throne that she is the fourth of his children to make it that far, and that the other three died by his hand. And we know for a fact Claude did not kill Marietta.

I see good point. I guess no regular Blacksnake could make it to him but rather the heirs he produces. Then Marietta is just a b***h. Damn Thronè route is always meant just to be hell. I think Claude would be better if he was collecting dark weapons for Arcanette but not as shocking or interesting. The Vide vessel thing is never brought up again or explained.

Also yeah, about the Vide vessel thing, that definitely wasn't really explained at all. All we learned is that Claude was raised to serve such a purpose but rejected it, deciding to pass it on to one of his children instead...which ultimately went nowhere. If anything, I think Oboro was the one to serve as Vide's vessel based on endgame dialog and visual context clues. Which also doesn't make any sense because based on the journal written by Ori, the reason Claude was chosen to be Vide's vessel was because he had the blood of both D'arqest and Vide within his veins, both of which I don't think Oboro had. And yet Vide gets resurrected anyway??? Look, the finale of Octopath 2 is miles better than that of Octopath 1, but geez does it have a lot of problems in its storytelling.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Crystal1501:

...So basically every major character we met is either insane or unknowingly a tool...
Wow. Is there ANYONE we met who's 'normal'?

Also, here is something interesting trivia:

Osvald----Harvey
Castti----Trousseau
Temenos----Arcanette
Ochette----Petrichor
Partitio----Ori
Agnea----Tanzy
Throné----Claude
Hikari----Oboro

Much like in the first game the first letter of each protagonists name spell out OCTOPATH, but as an added bonus, the eight characters in each protagonists story, whether they'd be villains (as you know, you only fight Trousseau, Harvey, and Claude as the bosses in three of the final chapters, but you also fight Arcanette in the finale story, Vide the Wicked is the actual final boss of the game btw if that weren't obvious enough) or just simply individuals who lost faith in the Dawn spell out OCTOPATH backwards. Tanzy didn't really do anything wrong, she was just ultimately taken advantage of, and ended up meeting a far worse death than her dearly departed lover. Ori however knew what she was doing but while she does successfully douse the Sacred Flame in the Fellsun Ruins, she WAS, as I said earlier, ultimately moved by Partitio's kindness and selflessness and made sure she wouldn't die so she could potentially live to see the Dawn. After finishing the finale you can find her resting at the inn at Crackridge and she is also visible during the final scene of the game where the vast majority of the characters in the game (save for a few of the villains like Stenvar and Bandelam and of course anyone who died) are at the New Delsta Theatre watching Agnea perform. On a side note, Agnea also voices the very last line of the game after giving a small speech about not only her journey, but also her friends' as well: "This song is for you...Octopath Traveler."

[Darkstar77]

I knew of the trend of naming the characters after each letter of the title. I failed to notice they did it for the antagonists as well. Thanks for the trivia. As I stated before Tanzy wasn't handled properly. The fact you can find the troupe entertaining travelers at the dock without any worry or mention of Tanzy is kind of empty when it comes to world building. I'm not going to gush about the Trails of series but they usually handle side characters really well especially when it involves events and or other characters.

[MrTherandomguy42]

Originally posted by Darkstar77:

I knew of the trend of naming the characters after each letter of the title. I failed to notice they did it for the antagonists as well. Thanks for the trivia. As I stated before Tanzy wasn't handled properly. The fact you can find the troupe entertaining travelers at the dock without any worry or mention of Tanzy is kind of empty when it comes to world building. I'm not going to gush about the Trails of series but they usually handle side characters really well especially when it involves events and or other characters.

Tanzy's sudden absence (as well as the Troupe never mentioning her again) isn't the only thing that bothers me, there are also a number of things leading up to or during the finale that also do so. Such as no mention of the Darkblood Blade being missing after Mugen's death (as we all know Oboro stole it), Ochette having zero reaction or comment to learning that the animal companion she didn't choose ended up under the Dark Hunter Petrichor's command (also side note, I feel there could of been a Travel Banter between Temenos and Ochette during the former's final chapter after Shirlutto essentially reveals how the Beastling race came to be), and of course Claude's entire existence in the story in general. Not only could he of been removed from the story entirely and it wouldn't effect the narrative that much, not only is he kinda a poor man's Simeon from the first game, but the twist with him, as I said earlier, is just shock for the sake of shock.

Also about Tanzy, she is also Agnea's only connecting thread to the overarching story, which in my opinion, was done worse than the one connecting thread to the overarching story to Alfyn's story from the first game. If you haven't played the first, basically, Graham Crossford, who is not only an apothecary but also a crucial character to the main narrative, cured a young Alfyn of a disease that would of killed him had he not had the cure he had on him when he passed by Alfyn's hometown (said cure he was going to use on his wife, who sadly passed away by the time he made the cure) and that was what inspired Alfyn to become an apothecary. The point I am trying to make is, that he is not only significant to Alfyn's story (and also Tressa's and technically H'aanit's) but also the overarching story as well despite Alfyn arguably having the weakest connection to said main storyline as opposed to the rest of the cast. Tanzy ain't all that important to Agnea's storyline and she is essentially a tool to the Moonshade order in the main storyline so I get what you mean.