As a Christian, Temenos offends me

[Crystal1501]

I am a Christian and I am proud of it. As a Christian, I respect everyone else, no matter who they are or where they came from. I don't judge, blame or label.

Why am I talking about Christianity? Because unlike the first game, this game's Sacred Flame church has clear parallels to Christianity (example: everyone is born with shadows in their hearts, similar to how the bible says how everyone is born with sin). With this being said, Temenos should not be an inquisitor.

Playing chapter 1, I can see many flaws in him already, such as having a 'holier than thou' attitude, demeaning others around him, and using the scriptures to justify his actions.

I'm totally with Crick; Temenos is not reflecting his religion positively. I'll admit, his attitude was cute at first, but it got real annoying real quick. If Crick turns his back on the Sacred Flame because of Temenos, I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm sorry for bringing Christianity into this, but Temenos really got on my nerves quickly and I needed to get this out.

[Tarv]

I can understand not liking his character but it seems strange that he would offend you as a Christian. Read up on the history of what real Christian inquisitors have done and you'll find that Temenos is a very tame depiction of what an inquisitor can be.

[Melodia]

İlk olarak Crystal1501 tarafından gönderildi:

In one of the Phoenix Wright games, also by the Japanese, there's this line: "Well, as they say, 'the love of money is the root of all evil'."

No sure why you'd use a singular quote from a Phoenix Write game of all things. It's extremely likely the line in question has nothing to do with what was in the original Japanese.

[Tenjou]

Unfortunately, that's just the way Japan is regarding external religions. If you take a closer look at most of Square/Squaresoft/SquareEnix's storylines, they are bashing religion and/or killing a god at one point or another. And the idiology is often placed somewhere in the middle to end of the game and completely unexpected, and often hits the point really hard and is often times half-hearted or not well thought out.

I think back to the events of Oscar and Teresea in Tales of Berseria for example. Every time they appear, they are simply talking about having a pleasant time and enjoying tea or some other perfectly acceptable activity, all the while vile demonic music is playing in the background. The developers are trying so hard to make them into the villians simply because they belong to a religion, and want the player to think of them as such without really thinking about what is happening in the storyline.

[Jedo]

I'm waiting for OP to respond to the post quoted below. That was satisfying to read and I don't know why it's being ignored.

İlk olarak Nibbie tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Crystal1501 tarafından gönderildi:

What do you mean by that?

You must not have been paying much attention. "Doubt is what I do".

His "'holier than thou' attitude" and demeaning are more playful than mean or arrogant. Many of his remarks are more dry wit than serious criticism, and while that rubs many people the wrong way (you and Crick being examples), it doesn't make him any less good at his job; your stereotypical inquisitor is more feared than liked, after all, and Temenos literally beats information out of people.

Second, since when has someone potentially being unfit for a job stopped them from being in that job? There are tons of examples of CEOs, managers, etc. who are clearly unfit for their job, but still have it, and I can pretty much guarantee that you can find dozens of stories from any given year of church leaders doing bad and/or illegal things. Heck, "using the scriptures to justify his actions" is what millions of people do every day to justify their wars, racism, sexism, and all manner of other deeds.

You don't mention what kind of Christian you are, but Christians in general have done plenty of terrible things that would "not [reflect their] religion positively". You have the Crusades, where millions of people died and didn't even achieve much in the end. You have the actual inquisitions, where people were imprisoned or killed because they didn't believe exactly what everyone else did. Pope Innocent IV, leader of the Catholic church around 1250, made a document expressly allowing the inquisitors to torture people to get them to confess, with only a few restrictions. The Spanish Inquisition is a funny Monty Python sketch, but also a real event where thousands of people were prosecuted and killed, many of them Jews and Muslims that were forced to become Christian under threat of death. The entire Church of England was made solely so King Henry VIII could get divorced. The Catholic Church helped many Nazis escape punishment after WW2, forging travel documents to get them to places like South America with new identities; an elderly friend of mine said that his dad (a veteran of WW2) instantly left the Catholic Church when he learned this.

All this to say, your dislike of Temenos is not invalid, other opinions are fine, but you being offended by his representation, seemingly because you think he reflects negatively on Christians, makes it look like you are incredibly naive to the many very real things that actually reflect negatively on Christians. As a Christian myself, I enjoyed Temenos; he is a man of faith, but his faith is not blind. He is not a model member of his faith, but he is not simply corrupt either (the vast majority of fictional church leaders I've seen fall into one of those two categories). He questions what he is told, comes to his own conclusions about the truth, and he isn't afraid of confronting others' assumptions.

[Crystal1501]

İlk olarak Jedo tarafından gönderildi:

I'm waiting for OP to respond to the post quoted below. That was satisfying to read and I don't know why it's being ignored.

İlk olarak Nibbie tarafından gönderildi:

You must not have been paying much attention. "Doubt is what I do".

His "'holier than thou' attitude" and demeaning are more playful than mean or arrogant. Many of his remarks are more dry wit than serious criticism, and while that rubs many people the wrong way (you and Crick being examples), it doesn't make him any less good at his job; your stereotypical inquisitor is more feared than liked, after all, and Temenos literally beats information out of people.

Second, since when has someone potentially being unfit for a job stopped them from being in that job? There are tons of examples of CEOs, managers, etc. who are clearly unfit for their job, but still have it, and I can pretty much guarantee that you can find dozens of stories from any given year of church leaders doing bad and/or illegal things. Heck, "using the scriptures to justify his actions" is what millions of people do every day to justify their wars, racism, sexism, and all manner of other deeds.

You don't mention what kind of Christian you are, but Christians in general have done plenty of terrible things that would "not [reflect their] religion positively". You have the Crusades, where millions of people died and didn't even achieve much in the end. You have the actual inquisitions, where people were imprisoned or killed because they didn't believe exactly what everyone else did. Pope Innocent IV, leader of the Catholic church around 1250, made a document expressly allowing the inquisitors to torture people to get them to confess, with only a few restrictions. The Spanish Inquisition is a funny Monty Python sketch, but also a real event where thousands of people were prosecuted and killed, many of them Jews and Muslims that were forced to become Christian under threat of death. The entire Church of England was made solely so King Henry VIII could get divorced. The Catholic Church helped many Nazis escape punishment after WW2, forging travel documents to get them to places like South America with new identities; an elderly friend of mine said that his dad (a veteran of WW2) instantly left the Catholic Church when he learned this.

All this to say, your dislike of Temenos is not invalid, other opinions are fine, but you being offended by his representation, seemingly because you think he reflects negatively on Christians, makes it look like you are incredibly naive to the many very real things that actually reflect negatively on Christians. As a Christian myself, I enjoyed Temenos; he is a man of faith, but his faith is not blind. He is not a model member of his faith, but he is not simply corrupt either (the vast majority of fictional church leaders I've seen fall into one of those two categories). He questions what he is told, comes to his own conclusions about the truth, and he isn't afraid of confronting others' assumptions.

The reason I didn't respond was to avoid a religious debate. I know I mentioned religion in the first place, but it was supposed to be how I felt about the character. The quote did interest me, and I sent him a friend request to discuss this subject, but he didn't accept.

[Crystal1501]

İlk olarak Tenjou tarafından gönderildi:

Unfortunately, that's just the way Japan is regarding external religions. If you take a closer look at most of Square/Squaresoft/SquareEnix's storylines, they are bashing religion and/or killing a god at one point or another. And the idiology is often placed somewhere in the middle to end of the game and completely unexpected, and often hits the point really hard and is often times half-hearted or not well thought out.

I think back to the events of Oscar and Teresea in Tales of Berseria for example. Every time they appear, they are simply talking about having a pleasant time and enjoying tea or some other perfectly acceptable activity, all the while vile demonic music is playing in the background. The developers are trying so hard to make them into the villians simply because they belong to a religion, and want the player to think of them as such without really thinking about what is happening in the storyline.

So the Phoenix Wright games were the exception?

[Tenjou]

I just finished playing his chapter. I was expecting him to be a snake within the church of flame. But that does not seem to be the case. He's simply using a round about way to tell Crick that he's too ignorant of the true nature of the corrupt world around him.

As to the above re-post provided by Jedo, I agree. Religion is a form of politics, similar to identity (racial/sexual) politics that are often used and abused today. Politics can be and is often used as a means to manipulate and control people who go against the desires and direction of the current leadership's ideology. That being said, any form of governmental politics can become corrupted and used against the people.

Those who tried to fight back against the tyranny of corrupt religious-based government forces, were called heretics and chastised. Just as in today's world, anyone who tries to fight back against new-age tyranny are often automatically dubbed as racists, sexist, or science deniers in order to turn the world against them.

But to make a long story short, Religion is not evil, but people can be. And religion can take many forms.

[Crystal1501]

Thank you for the response, my biggest concern was just that Temenos wasn't upholding values that are preached, but I've come to realise he's just a bit of a jerk lol, and I have hope he'll be less of a jerk as his story goes on (haven't ♥♥♥♥♥♥ to his chapter 2 yet)

[WanderingHero]

I'm a Christian and honestly from all the Square games i've played this is the most respect they've shown Christianity. Temmeos might be needlessly snarky and gives Crick more ♥♥♥♥ than he deserves (something Agnea calls out if you activate Party Chat in chapter 2)but otherwise he cares and tries to do the right thing. Christians aren't expect to be perfect and frankly as someone raised Catholic but still Christian we need more Christians willing to question other Chrsitians and people in the church willing to investigate instead of turning a blind eye.

Ive only compelted chapter 2, but I dont think he means ot be seriously hurtful, he does intend it more as playful ribbing than malicious cruelty

[Crystal1501]

Well, well, even other characters notice... looking forward to that interaction!

[Wiegraf Folles]

Temenos isn't a Christian though? This is a fantasy religion and has more in common with Zoroastrianism than Christianity. So chill.

[WanderingHero]

İlk olarak Wiegraf Folles tarafından gönderildi:

Temenos isn't a Christian though? This is a fantasy religion and has more in common with Zoroastrianism than Christianity. So chill.

To be fair he is a ♥♥♥♥ to Crick teasing the heck out of him but I do think he intends more as playful ribbing than real cruelty

[Crystal1501]

İlk olarak Wiegraf Folles tarafından gönderildi:

Temenos isn't a Christian though? This is a fantasy religion and has more in common with Zoroastrianism than Christianity. So chill.

I'm sorry, I never heard of Zoroastrianism until you mentioned here, literally had to research it. I had already explained why I feel this game has more ties between the sacred flame and Christianity than in the first game, and I maintain my viewpoint on this matter. Not so strong in my opinion towards Temenos, rather regarding the connections between the sacred flame and Christianity.

[Alchemical Lore]

Ultimately, it's a storyteller telling a story, of which you've only seen 1 chapter, and came to conclusions about a character. A lot of times people will look to aspects in their own life to relate to stories, and it's possible you are doing this, imposing Christianity on the religion in the game. I would just reserve your judgement until you see the whole story and determine for yourself how you feel when it's all done.

Yes, there are similarities, but there are many things that differentiate it too. If I wanted to draw parallels there is always ways to do so, like equating "Several people who believe the same things, joining to discuss said beliefs" to say that Christianity looks a whole lot like.... An AA meeting, just as an example. So just.... wait and see, and tell us what you think at the end.

[Crystal1501]

Well, tbh, by now, I've played chapter 2, and... my impression of Temenos has ♥♥♥♥♥♥ worse if anything... I mean, he's still calling Crick a lamb, he committed breaking and entering, and has been tampering with evidence and crime scenes! I let the first crime scene tampering slide because it was obvious the pontiff wanted Temenos to find that bit of scripture, but the second time...