Engaging but needs a lot of balancing

[hushicho]

I don't normally play this type of game, but I liked the motif and the necromancer thing makes repeated defeats less frustrating conceptually.

However, the game is too unforgiving. It's just not fun anymore. You can't chill, there's no difficulty selection where you can have a nice time, it's constantly go time and if you mess up even slightly, it's over. You're too squishy, and the overly plentiful enemies are too strong. It was fun at first to unlock other classes, but they're all incredibly squishy. If they give you something slightly useful, they take immense utility away. You might as well play any of the classes as any other, because each of them is rigged against you in some small but crucial way.

In these games, you usually become the bullet hell or some other balancing, mitigating factor. Not so in this one. It depends mostly on luck and nothing else, and I haven't been able to finish a single run in twelve hours of play and full unlocking of most options. That's not reasonable.

I really want to give this a recommendation when I do a review, but as it is, it's not recommendable. No one I know will play this, because it's so brutal, they're not going to have fun. I'd be regretting my purchase if this weren't given to me as a gift.

Sincerely, please balance this a bit more, or give us something so that we can just vibe and have fun with the game. I play games less and less when it's stressful to play them and I know I'm not likely to even be able to get through a single full playthrough.

[me mushroom man]

Unironically sounds like a bit of a git gud issue. Yes - you can't chill (unless your build is really up and running, and even then you need to pay attention at certain times for problematic enemy types), but that's a style choice. 20 Minutes Until Dawn is another similar game where you generally can't chill; it is just the design.

Focus on upgrading your class and boneraiser lore and you should find yourself succeeding. Avoid unnecessary investment in hero lore as this can be runs harder, although more rewarding. Good luck if you decide to keep at it.

[Honorable_D]

The Lich class seems really easy/powerful and most runs I never really get close to being in trouble.

Just spawn like 3 or so of every level 1 skele minion and get a few power minions like a couple demons mixed in and your huge swarm will kill almost everything before it can even get close.

[hushicho]

No, it's really not. I've played enough of this type of game to be able to recognize things. I've played it for a reasonable amount of time and every time I think there's something new that's going to make things more enjoyable and less stressful, that's not the case. That's questionable design.

Also, as I pointed out, I fully upgraded a number of classes. It did not make the game more enjoyable or balanced in any case. And naturally, I did not invest much in hero lore.

Admittedly, as I said, I don't generally play this type of game, but I did receive it as a gift. However, given the option, I would not recommend it as-is to anyone. Even for this type of game, it's just not fun to keep playing a game that doesn't let you finish it to really any extent and just punishes you for making the choice to play it.

And thanks Honorable_D, but I'm not really looking for strategy and, in any case, that class is exactly what I pointed out in my original post.

I should also point out that the person who gifted the game to me, who plays this type of game a whole lot more than I do, also felt the same: it's too unforgiving. It suits a very narrow play style, and that play style only. It's cool if that's your style, but you can't really expect much of an audience if the only way to play it is a very narrow path, and it drastically reduces the longevity of the game.

Once a game starts to make it clear I'm not advancing without some miraculous new advantage it's not going to give me, I lose interest in that game instantly. That's not good design, it's design with horse blinders.

In any case, I'm probably not going to check back with this thread. The developers can either accept the advice and improve the game to something more playable, or they can ignore it and change nothing. I feel bad for my friend wasting the money on a game that turned out to be not much fun to play, but I've played it too long to refund it now. It at least took a long while to discover that it's impossible to complete, though I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a really crappy thing.

I'll just be uninstalling it. Maybe if it ends up getting any care and becoming a better game, I'll take a look again sometime. Good soundtrack. Fun designs. Lovely pixel art. Just not a very fun game.

[Purple]

tbh I thought the game was too easy and the hero lore was there so you could bring up the difficulty without having to do an hour long run before you die. Perhaps I just lucked into the best class (Giant boi) that gives you a ton of health but even then I enjoyed playing lich at the start.

Idk, are you sliding? Supersliding? Those two already make most kiting ridiculously easy. Plan out your minion build a bit and invest in lore, idk.

As a guy whose played vampire survivors and that genre for a while, I found this the most fun kind so far (Though I've been meaning to try brotato). Perhaps it's not your thing, idk. I never found the stand still and watch your build finish the game for you part too fun, so perhaps thats it.

[ROBERTHATMAN]

There is a creative mode where you can adjust all the difficulty settings but you need to have unlocked all the heroic and lore meta to unlock it.Also upgrading the enemies is pretty much required since they give you the necessary resources to survive later stages.

[Gnathorn]

I strongly disagree with the post creator. There's Heroic Force, which isn't neccessary to unlock, and even still, I haven't had any problems with Castle Conquest or King Gigald runs even when going all in for score, not levels. Okay, I have like 400 hrs in this game, but there's also the Creative Plaything which ROBERTHATMAN pointed out. Skirmish missions are tough still for me too, even with all unlocked, but challenge is fun too.

hushicho might be missing something. I mean Piggy Bank, Giga Banishes and new strong classes make the game a lot easier, than the new bosses and enemy waves make it harder. If anything, they make it more variable and interesting. (There's also a lot new Relics, Spells and Contraptions, aswell as minions) Or maybe you were expecting Vampire Survivors clone in a way where you can literally stand still or take a nap and come back after like 15-30 min and you're still untouched.

[caiys]

Originally posted by hushicho:

And naturally, I did not invest much in hero lore.

Sounds like this is the issue. The Heroic Force meta adds extra special stages between the normal human stages which are essential for giving you the bone resources to create a large enough army. Without them you will always be overwhelmed by the amount of enemies in the normal human stages.

I'll have a look at explaining this more ingame somehow, perhaps with an extra tutorial ghost if it detects you're investing far more into Boneraise Lore instead of Heroic Force. And if you have any other specific issues or suggestions let me know. :]

[Rubyeyed]

I beat the game for the first time after 4h (and I have 0 experience in this particular genre), now I'm at 6h playtime and I can beat the first level almost all the time. idk maybe you are playing it wrong.

Aside from that, dumbing everything down because the game isn't fitting your "chill" requirements is pretty self centered and because of that it's not the best request/advice for the devs.

[Purple]

Originally posted by caiys:

Originally posted by hushicho:

And naturally, I did not invest much in hero lore.

Sounds like this is the issue. The Heroic Force meta adds extra special stages between the normal human stages which are essential for giving you the bone resources to create a large enough army. Without them you will always be overwhelmed by the amount of enemies in the normal human stages.

I'll have a look at explaining this more ingame somehow, perhaps with an extra tutorial ghost if it detects you're investing far more into Boneraise Lore instead of Heroic Force. And if you have any other specific issues or suggestions let me know. :]

Maybe the first time someone makes it to a high wave/boss the game has a traveler type appearance where they explain heroic force and why you should upgrade the meanies (More meanies to stomp = more bones = more meanies stomped).

That, or maybe even lock heroic force until they beat a wave or two, then unlock it and explain that its a way to make more meanies show up before the meanies that beat you.

I prefer the discovering aspect, but it is fair to say that the idea of creating miniwaves between the proper waves via hero force isn't very intuitive.

Feature idea: Maybe have a menu/sidebar on the side of the heroic force screen that would show the waves (Obvsly hiding waves we haven't seen/beat yet) distinguishing the fixed in game waves and the heroic force in game waves showing what order they'll appear in, even allowing you to see what will appear and getting linked to the bestiary via clicking, etc. But I dunno how much work that would take.

[Yextiny]

My experience has been that if you're engaging with the mechanics at the home base (architect mode, class heritage, heroic force, etc) & playing to your class's strengths, each run should be a streamroll until you get about 3/4 through NGF+1 which is where you really have to start weaving around to stay alive.

The goal is to create synergies between your contraptions, class, relics, and minions. That makes the game insanely easy once you start stacking all the complimentary mechanics.

That said, trying to 100% the achievements has taught me that you can still easily beat the game with just selecting the first option for spells, minions, and relics, with all of your class heritage turned off, without deamons, etc.

[badger vortex]

Yeah the Heroic Force thing was initially confusing for me too, why would I want to upgrade enemies? I thought it was just a way to purely add challenge for those who wanted rather than being a significant bonus to getting more resources along a run.

I did invest in it after a few runs just to see how it worked, but otherwise I would have just spent everything on the other meta unlocks and ignored it. The game is a lot more manageable with those extra waves.

[Noodl]

Bruh git gud lol, I win basically every run I attempt at this point and find some classes are just far too broken to even play at this point (looking at you, voodoo shaman). It's all about making the best decision, and knowing when to use your rerolls. It's like playing any other card game. Here's your hand, make the best choice with the options you've been given.

You can even turn some things off/on in order to further dial down into the decisions you want to make. IE: If you're going into a run and you know that any of the "bro" characters are just not going to be something you're going to want, just remove them. The game gives you so many ways and options of play and quite frankly you're thinking too much inside-the-box if you've been playing 12 hours and haven't been able to beat a run yet. I do applaud your perseverance, though. My ass would have quit already if I was in your shoes lmfao.

[Yextiny]

I think ultimately this just ain't the OP's kinda game. They even said as much: "I don't normally play this type of game, but I liked the motif and the necromancer thing makes repeated defeats less frustrating conceptually."

It's okay if you don't enjoy the game, but it's not the game's fault. Try a different game

[Nogan]

The game starts unforgiving until you invest in the various unlock trees. Ignoring heroic lore is going to make collecting enough resources to win a run impossible.

[Lowk]

I killed the king twice without any hero lore unlocked, but it was with (what felt like) god runs on the beefy giant class then the lich, after I'd unlocked nearly every other upgrade. It's possible, but certainly doesn't seem like the dev's "intended" progression.

If I'd known the Hero Lore actually inserted new waves instead of just adding enemies to existing waves, I would have bought those sooner! Making that distinction clearer in the in-game descriptions would help newbies tremendously. A small (and hopefully easily remedied) oversight in an otherwise stellar game!