Quantity of items is too much

[PaceyLionheart]

There are many items that, if one would make a statistic, get almost never picked and just clump up every run. Also some items have a three times limit or even over 10 times! They could just be unique or half their limit with higher values instead (coil, bag, sausage, monkey, metal detector).

The entire item category, that removes harvesting is insanely expensive, for what its worth (most of them just give life steal, which is one of the worst healing factors in the game imo, because it depends on so many other factors, like weapon speed, bounces, pierces, projectiles. If you consider the cost over all waves, sure one could say there are characters that cannot build up harvesting and thus these items work on them, but compared to how many characters there are, it is not worth keeping these items in the game at these values (they basically just look cool at this point).

Also I do not understand why some gray items cost way more than other ones, like make more item tiers, if there are some balancing issues. Monkey for example is almost double the cost of everything else in its category and it takes away some spots for other good items, that you need, to build up the early game. I understand that unique items cost more than general items, but common, the stupid monkey gives only 8% to heal 1 HP on a material pickup, that is only worth picking up after I got four monkeys already. Which makes no sense in the first place, by the time you have enough material to make the monkey not completely
destroy your economy, you need way more healing than just the few HP it restores you. It is basically just in the game to clump up endless runs. Like many other items as well.

[Kappa]

About the number of items, is to prevent people from hitting the same stuff over and over, and make them adapt to the run ( for example, new players would probably waste tons of materials rerolling because they are looking for specific items/weapons, up to the point rerolling is too expensive ), making each run different.

Cost depends the amount of stats they give ( starting weapons also have different price, depends their power/efficiency ), so at best it would be a "your" feeling towards some items you consider equal but more expensive, while devs don't.

Lifesteal is good with weapons like SMG and MINIGUN ( also combined with some heal on kill/crit or hp/s ), but useless with slow weapons. Overall is pretty strong ( even just 3/5% lifesteal on smg build would give a sensible amount of sustain ).

ps: bag is fine, with basically no drawback ( -1% speed ) and pay pack in no time.

[GunSalute!]

As i see it. The worse items are intentionally there to make RNG regarding chests and shops more right. Its there to make so the re-roll mechanic a thing. Also the caps on certain items i believe is more aimed at the endless mode. I have 10 less hours than u in the game. But i've never reached a limit on items that can be stacked. Nor do I play any endless at all. Also this monkey item is not supposed to carry u solely as a healing sustain. Its rather an alternative buff if anything

[elite outsider]

Originally posted by Kappa:

About the number of items, is to prevent people from hitting the same stuff over and over.

nah it's just because they added tons of new items
while keeping all the shop mechanics and economy the same

it's not complicated. you used to be able to find hunting trophy and build a run reliably in the base game. now you can't. starfish and black flag are good but they're not as good and their downsides can be very punishing. the same can be said for lots of other key items. with 4 shop slots you're less likely to find any of these (you have more "purple economy items" but the chance of finding any one is lowered compared to pre-DLC, partly because there are lots of other new purple items like everyone's favourite knot)

prior to the DLC, the game already had rerolling and you needed to use it then. the same is true for every other facet of the economy (# of enemies, materials per enemy, blabla) ... all of which are impacted by the larger more random shop.

most of the unlockable items from the DLC are extra bad: mace, captain's sword etc are largely pointless. same idea as fighting stick and hatchet where unlocking them only harms your future shops because they're so pointless and bad

did you guys not notice the part where they buffed rerolling after the DLC release to help people cope with this? that was *after* adding spyglass because they realized having 1 item out of hundreds to affect that is just another instance of the same problem

but yeah bag is one of the strongest items. less so now that you're less likely to find it early!

and cute monkey is great if your healing comes from wading through groups head first (loud + thief daggers + dodge + consumable healing + monkey), the item hints at how to use it since its penalty is on ranged damage..

if metal detector was 1 item or fewer (like 5 or 10) the cost of it would need to skyrocket to account for how valuable it is. the limit of 20 is what ensures you can only get all of them in endless, because otherwise it would be the strongest economy item and make most runs extremely easy.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by elite outsider:

Originally posted by Kappa:

About the number of items, is to prevent people from hitting the same stuff over and over.

nah it's just because they added tons of new items
while keeping all the shop mechanics and economy the same

It's literally the same.
Given the fact a Roguelite/Roguelike game tries to offer a different run everytime, just adding more items will make runs even more unique.

So, for example, if one were to hit item X, before patch they had 3% chances, and now they have 1.5%.

If you find yourself not at ease with a larger pool, you can just exploit the game with a new save and unlock what you want ( you'll end up with a smaller item/weapon pool, lessening also the difficulty ).

[elite outsider]

yeah, but "more unique" really just means "more random and full of garbage"

it just sucks. most people can see it so they're pointing it out.

adding knot to the game didn't make anyone's life more exciting. it's just a crappy badly designed item.

[PaceyLionheart]

We just need bans and one more shop slot or something like that. Like for example you have a character that goes 100% harvesting is reduced, you can ban the whole harvesting item tag. That would only include items that give harvesting, not take it. So you could ban ranged damage item tags and not finds tons and tons of stupid guns, when you run around with sticks. Like what the ♥♥♥♥?

[ViTal]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by elite outsider:

nah it's just because they added tons of new items
while keeping all the shop mechanics and economy the same

It's literally the same.
Given the fact a Roguelite/Roguelike game tries to offer a different run everytime, just adding more items will make runs even more unique.

So, for example, if one were to hit item X, before patch they had 3% chances, and now they have 1.5%.

If you find yourself not at ease with a larger pool, you can just exploit the game with a new save and unlock what you want ( you'll end up with a smaller item/weapon pool, lessening also the difficulty ).

“unique” doesn’t equal fun. it’s not making games more enjoyable at all. I don’t want to win every time, but I also don’t want to lose to rng too often

[Sten]

The game is intended for 20 waves. Endless is just a cherry on top. Balancing for endless is mainly to ensure not too many broken builds that get the engine to its limitations since that makes reviews tank because people are people.

[DarkTwinge]

Originally posted by PaceyLionheart:

We just need bans[...] Like for example you have a character that goes 100% harvesting is reduced, you can ban the whole harvesting item tag.

This was literally already added — items that are strictly worthless will not show up for those characters at all in the shop or in crates. (The only exception I know of currently is Eyes Surgery will appear for Chef but should be banned.)


And as mentioned, rerolls are cheaper in 1.1 as well, giving more flexibility to roll for what you want if desired.

Furthermore, some of the items mentioned specifically are strong, e.g. Knot is massive stat value for its cost. Weapons are usually less and less cost-effective the more you've upgraded them already anyway, and you can still spend that money elsewhere. I've absolutely taken a Knot on ~Wave 12 to make me stronger now at the cost of being a little weaker later, and that can be an interesting trade off (usually you're making the opposite trade-off with e.g. Harvesting, Piggy Bank).

Lifesteal I would agree is *a little* weak right now, as the changes in 1.1 + DLC ended up making HP Regen more reliably good and strong, but it's still not terrible sustain. It can also work on more weapons than you might expect, e.g. Spears attack slow but hit a bunch of enemies at once while swinging slowly enough they can proc multiple times per attack, making them surprisingly good Lifesteal weapons.


All that said, if you want a more balanced experience, I have developed a Balance Mod you can grab on the workshop to better even out some of the items/weapons and make more worth using. (Tho a small few I haven't had time to properly rework for 1.1, like Padding which is still only good on 3 characters outside of endless.)

[elite outsider]

Originally posted by DarkTwinge:

Furthermore, some of the items mentioned specifically are strong, e.g. Knot is massive stat value for its cost

absolutely not. not going to read the rest of your post if you honestly believe this, sorry.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by elite outsider:

Originally posted by DarkTwinge:

Furthermore, some of the items mentioned specifically are strong, e.g. Knot is massive stat value for its cost

absolutely not. not going to read the rest of your post if you honestly believe this, sorry.

Worth remembering that by default people are not talking about Endless. Obviously "strong now but weaker later" stuff is actively detrimental for those going into the mode that keeps going until you die. Hopefully nobody needs that explained to them.

[gibbousmoon100]

Originally posted by elite outsider:

Originally posted by DarkTwinge:

Furthermore, some of the items mentioned specifically are strong, e.g. Knot is massive stat value for its cost

absolutely not. not going to read the rest of your post if you honestly believe this, sorry.

This reads like a conversation between Americans about politics. "You have a differing opinion? OK then, I won't even bother listening." And voila. The mess that is America, where no one cares about nuance and context.

Knot is trash tier for Endless, but god tier (situationally) otherwise. Nuance. Context. Ignore them at your peril. Or move to America, where ignoring nuance and context is the norm.

[gangster7201]

I still dont understand why they havent done anything about all the useless items. Youre not the first one pointing it out the reviews speak for themselves.

[gangster7201]

Ive personally played this game for 800 hours. Now im only playing it in the Godot Editor modded by myself to adjust all the items.

[elite outsider]

i didn't say anything about endless. knot is not 'god tier' even in 20 wave games, it's just bad