Fairy OP?

[booQorm]

So, Fairy.

By mid-game, when the Fairy is likely to appear, you have something like 15 Tier I items, which translates into +15 Regeneration. By the end of the game you rarely have more than 4 Tier IV items. Tier IV weapons seem to have no negative effect. Thus, you get an item that, for the better part of the game, is, like, twice as strong as Sad Tomato, getting to just as strong in the worst case scenario, but with no negative effects whatsoever.

Except for some edge cases, like the King (when it is useless) or perhaps Lucky (if you're so lucky you get a ton of Tier IV's), Fairy is a guaranteed win: ridiculous Regeneration makes you virtually immortal.

I would rather make Fairy Tier IV. Thus, it becomes much more rare, and you automatically get -2 Regeneration penalty for acquiring it. Alternatively, it has to carry some additional negative effects, like -4 to Life Steal.

UPD. Another option: Make Tier IV weapons have negative effect too. Thus Fairy becomes fairly useful midgame, but starts to drag in the late game.

[Azael]

Tier 3 seems fine, but I Guess negative LifeSteal would be reasonable

[Bumc]

Tbh regen is still the worst form of sustain (compared to consumables, or even lifesteal), so it can some use items that enable it.

Tomato is a bad comparison -- its a terrible item, except for builds that actually want to start at half life for some reason (lich I guess).

[booQorm]

Yeah, regen kinda sucks, but not when you have a sh*tton of it. And that is what Fairy gives you virtually for free.

Anyway, the comparison with Tomato is so much more valid because of that: for similar price you get incomparably better item. Way better than Torture, which is Tier IV, for you can get the same +4HP/S just for the items you will be having anyway, without sacrificing Consumables and Life Steal.

[DarkTwinge]

One could make a reasonable argument for Fairy being the strongest item in the game currently. (Tho there are other contenders, such as the unassuming Coffee & Recycling Machine, or the pile-of-value Bloody Hand.)

My current thoughts for Fairy are: Price 85->95; -2 HP Regeneration per Tier-4 item -> -3. This still leaves it as *quite* strong, but you have to pay a more reasonable amount for that power, and the impact pf snagging tier-4s is also a bit more noticeable.

[booQorm]

One more idea would be to make Fairy get -2 Life Steal instead of Regen for each Tier IV Item and Weapon. In that case, it can really ruin the late game, on par with things like Trangle of Power or Shackles.

[Azael]

Fairy could also lock HP Regen to that value instead of -Regen per Tier4

What I also want to add here, because of that "HP Regen" sucks. I don't think that Fairy is op because of the Stats per se, but of the option to build more momentum it provides, same reason why I think Cryptid is fairly OP. The amount of HP Regen you get will carry you trough early, without the need for more investment in def/sustain. Thus being able to invest hard into damage/clear and thus getting even more money.

[booQorm]

Yeah, locking HP would also seem like an option for me.

Originally posted by Azael:

I don't think that Fairy is op because of the Stats per se, but of the option to build more momentum it provides, same reason why I think Cryptid is fairly OP.

Cryptid was the second easiest D5 walk I've had after Knight. Especially since your range is set to -100 from the get go, so that it becomes really hard to chop a tree.

Knight has the same problem - 0 need to invest into attack, coupled with on average less money spent on rerolls since you have no ranged weapons at the store. Just pump everything into armor, buy medieval, and see enemies die left and right.

And granted, we can't explain a Starcraft level of balance from a $5 game. But I started the discussion with the Fairy as the most obvious imba example to perhaps draw attention less severe, but still annoying ones, like, imo, Annihilator (make aim at the toughest enemy by default?), Power Triangle (never use), maybe Community Support (-20% Attack Speed?)

[Deathraven13]

Can you beat D5 182% with that item ? If not then it's not OP.

[Azael]

Originally posted by booQorm:

And granted, we can't explain a Starcraft level of balance from a $5 game. But I started the discussion with the Fairy as the most obvious imba example to perhaps draw attention less severe, but still annoying ones, like, imo, Annihilator (make aim at the toughest enemy by default?), Power Triangle (never use), maybe Community Support (-20% Attack Speed?)

I wasn't arguing against your point. Just wanted to note that's in my opinion, it's not the stats which make it strong. Btw, Power Triangle was a pick I avoided when I was inexperienced and preferred Wisdom over it. But now I think it's a really strong item and I love to take it. But agreed, I really don't like the Annihilator :D

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Can you beat D5 182% with that item ? If not then it's not OP.

If I win a D5 182% run, are all items in my inventory considered OP, or how does this classification work?

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by Azael:

If I win a D5 182% run, are all items in my inventory considered OP, or how does this classification work?

Record yourself beating D5 182% then after seeing it I'll tell you if HP regen with fairy is OP or not.

[Bumc]

If something doesn't help you beat the game on dance pad with eyes closed its not OP.

[Azael]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Originally posted by Azael:

If I win a D5 182% run, are all items in my inventory considered OP, or how does this classification work?

Record yourself beating D5 182% then after seeing it I'll tell you if HP regen with fairy is OP or not.

How about you post your run, instead of a cutoff screenshot. Also I don't see how providing a recording is needed for you to answer my question.

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by Azael:

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Record yourself beating D5 182% then after seeing it I'll tell you if HP regen with fairy is OP or not.

How about you post your run, instead of a cutoff screenshot. Also I don't see how providing a recording is needed for you to answer my question.

You've said:

Originally posted by Azael:

If I win a D5 182% run, are all items in my inventory considered OP, or how does this classification work?

So I'd like to see you try.

I didn't share any screenshots here so I don't know what you mean here.

EDIT: D5 182% both boss killed. Pretty amazing right ? :3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-j-_67wt4

[Azael]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Originally posted by Azael:

How about you post your run, instead of a cutoff screenshot. Also I don't see how providing a recording is needed for you to answer my question.

You've said:

Originally posted by Azael:

If I win a D5 182% run, are all items in my inventory considered OP, or how does this classification work?

So I'd like to see you try.

I didn't share any screenshots here so I don't know what you mean here.

EDIT: D5 182% both boss killed. Pretty amazing right ? :3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-j-_67wt4

You said "Can you beat D5 182% with that item ? If not then it's not OP.". I asked how does this classification work. It's a quite vague description of how something is vague. That why I asked, and I rephrase it "Is it enough, to have it in the inventory while winning a 182% run, to qualify as OP".

I'm talking about this screenshot: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2944154108
But great thanks for posting that video, now I can actually believe you that you are able to win a 182 run.

[Eggplant]

Originally posted by Azael:

But great thanks for posting that video, now I can actually believe you that you are able to win a 182 run.

That was Shbnfc's video from the Post Your Wins thread, not his own.