Lich is fun but it's not a Lich.

[Skiiage]

It's SO much easier to go with Scissors, Saws, or Medical Guns and buy HP than to build Ghost Sceptres and make up for the damage/healing deficit.

Plus Ethereal makes controlling HP a pain in the ass and Blood Donation is giga broken on him.

I guess what I'm saying is that he's more of a mad scientist exploding with lesions (like Dr Mundo from LOL) than an undead wizard defying death with dark magic. We need a class that summons spooky skeletons or something.

[Irie]

Originally posted by Anhigen:

This is what you want armour for. You want lots of little damage on Lich, so that you're constantly healing which is why items like Bloody Hands and Blood Donation work so well on Lich, but you can get their same effect by stacking armour and letting the aliens damage you. Health and armour > dodge. Also, Riposte doesn't offer you health which increases your passive damage. You can rethink Lich as trying to build a huge health pool that you can't fill up even with your great regen -- that way you're constantly doing damage with your passive.

Yea I can constantly deal damage even with dodge. People claiming dodge is somehow bad on Lich are just wrong. I only play Endless so use that info how you will. I never take any self harm item, on any character, due to the nature of endless eventually always being 1 shotish territory. Tardigrades are too important to keep up.

I usually get to a point where I can't actually fill my HP pool even with massive regen due to Padding scaling. You just need a sad tomato or a ghost each round. Tardigrades and Dodge are legit the only way to survive. Armor is obviously exceptionally important too. You want to be able to heal up that tiny amount of damage in the 1-20 waves. It is just beyond that, even once you hit the Armor cap (60 I think is when you reach 80% mitigation), no matter how hard you try, eventually something is probably going to one shot you unless you got very lucky with plastic explosives so your sauce hits the whole screen.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Anhigen:

Originally posted by thunda:

Yay you hit a single mob for 500, in the meanwhile just one of your weapons did 5000 damage..

Riposte is really useful as an elite/boss killer -- although the 50% hit chance is completely unnecessary given that it only procs on a successful dodge anyway -- but you're totally right about it being a bad item for Lich. Dodging damage works against their kit.

There's no way anyone is doing worthwhile damage to any boss or elite with Riposte.

And to Irie, I'm not claiming Dodge is bad on Lich, just that its unnecessary unless youre playing Endless. As an example its not bad on Ranger either, but I just never need it. Which allows to build for more dps.

For Endless pretty much every character is required to have max Dodge.

[Duneman]

It might shift in Endless, but for a standard 1-20 run I tend to run Lich with either Scissors or a similar heavy Life Steal weapon. He's basically always at that cap of 10hp/sec. With Scissors you get 100% crit without much effort as well.

It is true that I wouldn't consider Riposte for most characters, but for Lich you're dodging so often that it is a noticeable boost. Each one has 300% melee damage scaling.

Endless at this point I consider to be a wholly separate thing, one which fans are currently playtesting for the dev.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Duneman:

It might shift in Endless, but for a standard 1-20 run I tend to run Lich with either Scissors or a similar heavy Life Steal weapon. He's basically always at that cap of 10hp/sec. With Scissors you get 100% crit without much effort as well.

It is true that I wouldn't consider Riposte for most characters, but for Lich you're dodging so often that it is a noticeable boost. Each one has 300% melee damage scaling.

Endless at this point I consider to be a wholly separate thing, one which fans are currently playtesting for the dev.

Your Riposte is wasted on trash mobs, who cares about that. Wow you kill maybe one mob per 3 seconds with it, while just one of your melee weapons takes out 30 in the same time. And the damage is nothing impressive either, so its not good for boss killing. By the time you get anything meaningful on it (I'd say around 4-5k per Riposte), your weapons have so much DPS that theyre the ones melting the boss, not Riposte.

And Dodge on Lich in normal runs is useless like I explained, completely unnecessary. Choppers are his best weapon too, not Medical weapons.

So yeah, Riposte is trash on any build for any character under any circumstances, its a total noob trap.

[Anhigen]

Originally posted by thunda:

There's no way anyone is doing worthwhile damage to any boss or elite with Riposte.

You can literally watch people, like Retromation, zap bosses with it if you don't want to try it for yourself. All for your zesty replies but jeez bud...

Originally posted by Irie:

People claiming dodge is somehow bad on Lich are just wrong

I get why every one feels like a quote is antogonisitc around here, but as I pointed out in my og comment health and amror are more valuable than dodge on Lich. I didn't call it bad. Given that you only play Endless, which is an entirely different mode/mindset, it makes sense that you will eventually have to invest in dodge as the game scales, but in D5 your health, and thus damage, can scale past your enemies danger -- I don't see how melee damage and dodge out pace health and armour on Lich.

[Irie]

Originally posted by Anhigen:

I don't see how melee damage and dodge out pace health and armour on Lich.

I never mentioned nor do I take melee damage on Lich. The health / regen clearly outstrip it. You can still take dodge if it is offered in a normal D5 run, and it will still help you win. There is no world where having dodge on this character is actively working against you. You just make sure you are always damaged. Getting close to being full health? Run into the middle of the enemies, take your health down to half, go about your business.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Anhigen:

Originally posted by thunda:

There's no way anyone is doing worthwhile damage to any boss or elite with Riposte.

You can literally watch people, like Retromation, zap bosses with it if you don't want to try it for yourself. All for your zesty replies but jeez bud...

Got a link for me? I wanna see that

[ThatGuyKhi]

Originally posted by thunda:

Originally posted by Anhigen:

You can literally watch people, like Retromation, zap bosses with it if you don't want to try it for yourself. All for your zesty replies but jeez bud...

Got a link for me? I wanna see that

This should be it. I personally haven't tried it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BWHHf7CS38&ab_channel=Retromation

[thunda]

Originally posted by ThatGuyKhi:

Originally posted by thunda:

Got a link for me? I wanna see that

This should be it. I personally haven't tried it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BWHHf7CS38&ab_channel=Retromation

Wow I thought Retromation was this god player but he makes pretty bad mistakes even in the early waves. Dude locked two items (Gentle Alien and Coupon) and THEN rerolled the shop like 3 times, he couldve bought those items immediately and then rerolled and got 4 new items per roll instead of 2. Not very smart at all.

Then he locks Community Support at like wave 6, completely pointless item for him since Brawler never has trouble killing lots of mobs.

Invests in HP Regen, completely useless. He got a Hoodie from wave 12 Elite lmao.

And what is the end result? Riposte ended up doing a pathetic 23689 damage in the entire run. And was basically doing absolutely nothing to end bosses.

You didnt watch the video did you? He just clickbaited hard with the title, essentially lying through his teeth. One tier 4 fist did half that damage in wave 20 alone. Exactly what I was saying. Even on a build completely around Riposte, it still sucks balls.

[ThatGuyKhi]

Originally posted by thunda:

Originally posted by ThatGuyKhi:

This should be it. I personally haven't tried it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BWHHf7CS38&ab_channel=Retromation

Wow I thought Retromation was this god player but he makes pretty bad mistakes even in the early waves. Dude locked two items (Gentle Alien and Coupon) and THEN rerolled the shop like 3 times, he couldve bought those items immediately and then rerolled and got 4 new items per roll instead of 2. Not very smart at all.

Then he locks Community Support at like wave 6, completely pointless item for him since Brawler never has trouble killing lots of mobs.

Invests in HP Regen, completely useless. He got a Hoodie from wave 12 Elite lmao.

And what is the end result? Riposte ended up doing a pathetic 23689 damage in the entire run. And was basically doing absolutely nothing to end bosses.

You didnt watch the video did you? He just clickbaited hard with the title, essentially lying through his teeth. One tier 4 fist did half that damage in wave 20 alone. Exactly what I was saying. Even on a build completely around Riposte, it still sucks balls.

Oh I never watch his survival-style videos but everything you mentioned is pretty much how the videos will go.
Looks great as a thumbnail, thats it.

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by thunda:

Wow I thought Retromation was this god player but he makes pretty bad mistakes even in the early waves. Dude locked two items (Gentle Alien and Coupon) and THEN rerolled the shop like 3 times, he couldve bought those items immediately and then rerolled and got 4 new items per roll instead of 2. Not very smart at all.

Then he locks Community Support at like wave 6, completely pointless item for him since Brawler never has trouble killing lots of mobs.

Invests in HP Regen, completely useless. He got a Hoodie from wave 12 Elite lmao.

And what is the end result? Riposte ended up doing a pathetic 23689 damage in the entire run. And was basically doing absolutely nothing to end bosses.

You didnt watch the video did you? He just clickbaited hard with the title, essentially lying through his teeth. One tier 4 fist did half that damage in wave 20 alone. Exactly what I was saying. Even on a build completely around Riposte, it still sucks balls.

He won and proved that Riposte is not trash as you suggest, you just don't see the big picture wich I understand because mostly good players can do it: Riposte help in the damage department and make dodge even better because ennemies may take even more damage by attacking you wich mean they may die faster.

Now you'll complain that it's bad because it's RNG but the game is RNG to begin with: You don't get to decide what appear on the shop so if you play a ranged character you don't just get items that increase ranged damage, you'll get stuff that increase melee damage too, but good players can work with that.

Maybe you should play XCOM games in order to see that even with RNG you can still win, and good players can even win a campaign with just 1 unit doing work (need a second character to find EXALT for exemple). The experience you'll gain there will open your eyes because missing a 90% chance to hit sounds bad but that mean that you had a 9 chance out of 10 to hit, so getting 10% dodge is good if you'll take some hits, like some players on the forum have trouble dodging bullets (dodging with the controls) so a bit of dodge help them.

[Eggplant]

Originally posted by thunda:

Wow I thought Retromation was this god player but he makes pretty bad mistakes even in the early waves. Dude locked two items (Gentle Alien and Coupon) and THEN rerolled the shop like 3 times, he couldve bought those items immediately and then rerolled and got 4 new items per roll instead of 2. Not very smart at all.

That's not a mistake. The wave 2 and 3 shops are guaranteed to offer 2 weapons each reroll. A common strategy is to spam rerolls for the weapons you want in those first 2 shops, lock up to 2 items that are good, and wait to buy those items until the wave 4 shop. It makes it so you'll be more consistently able to get enough copies of the weapon you want in the early waves, and upgrade them more.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Eggplant:

Originally posted by thunda:

Wow I thought Retromation was this god player but he makes pretty bad mistakes even in the early waves. Dude locked two items (Gentle Alien and Coupon) and THEN rerolled the shop like 3 times, he couldve bought those items immediately and then rerolled and got 4 new items per roll instead of 2. Not very smart at all.

That's not a mistake. The wave 2 and 3 shops are guaranteed to offer 2 weapons each reroll. A common strategy is to spam rerolls for the weapons you want in those first 2 shops, lock up to 2 items that are good, and wait to buy those items until the wave 4 shop. It makes it so you'll be more consistently able to get enough copies of the weapon you want in the early waves, and upgrade them more.

I see, that makes sense. But its pretty rare that my run gets ruined because I dont get weapons. So I dont consider it a very important strategy.

[Irie]

I didn't watch the video but yea, I do have to agree that Riposte is generally a trash item. If it were a white item and had the cost scaling associated with that it would be intising. Just cause it has a lot of text I feel like it was made blue but there are plenty of better options than this item. I do consider it a pretty clear skip as it stands.

Consider this, on its own, it is 2 melee damage, and that is it. You can grab so many white items with 2 melee on them for half the cost. It only becomes "ok" to take if you already have a significant amount of dodge already.

[Anhigen]

Originally posted by thunda:

Wow I thought Retromation was this god player but he makes pretty bad mistakes even in the early waves. [...] He just clickbaited hard with the title, essentially lying through his teeth. One tier 4 fist did half that damage in wave 20 alone. Exactly what I was saying. Even on a build completely around Riposte, it still sucks balls.

Lol, your posts are always zesty and carry that air of superiority but this one is the most patronising yet. At least, that I have read.

I mean, it's clear what your bias is but considering that video literally demonstrates zapping high health targets -- as the problem with Riposte against mobs is that you overkill thus wasting all of it's damage -- kinda diminishes everything else you say about the game. I don't know, if you don't even know about early shop rolls then maybe you don't know as much about the game as you suggest. No doubt you're a good player but Retromation makes mods for Brotato... but yea... you do you, bud. Your wild replies keep me checking this game's discussion boards. Have you tried playing League of Legends yet?

Originally posted by Irie:

I never mentioned nor do I take melee damage on Lich. The health / regen clearly outstrip it. You can still take dodge if it is offered in a normal D5 run, and it will still help you win.

My apologies but multiple conversations were happening around dodge and it's relationship to Riposte on Lich. Dodge is not a negative stat (you're right ofc), nor is speed or luck, etc, but like you said, unless it's offered I don't take it on Lich. I'd rather KNOW when I'm getting damaged--another reason why the Bloody items work so well is how consistent they are.