Lich is fun but it's not a Lich.

[Skiiage]

It's SO much easier to go with Scissors, Saws, or Medical Guns and buy HP than to build Ghost Sceptres and make up for the damage/healing deficit.

Plus Ethereal makes controlling HP a pain in the ass and Blood Donation is giga broken on him.

I guess what I'm saying is that he's more of a mad scientist exploding with lesions (like Dr Mundo from LOL) than an undead wizard defying death with dark magic. We need a class that summons spooky skeletons or something.

[Deathraven13]

Summoning more stuff may make the game laggy until it's optimized so you may not be wrong but take into account the engine limits as devs have to.

[TheLuckyAce]

The videos I've seen people play the Lich they seem to "ignore" the health damage feature as much as possible and play "normal" with him.
So I've tried to use the Lich as well with his passive and it feels... bad. To build. around it you are depending 100% on RNG hit to the "correct" enemy or you need to get good items like "rip and tear" + C4 + Dynamite.

Most effective for me so far was "build SMG's with lifesteal and play like any other character"... sadly.

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

The videos I've seen people play the Lich they seem to "ignore" the health damage feature as much as possible and play "normal" with him.
So I've tried to use the Lich as well with his passive and it feels... bad. To build. around it you are depending 100% on RNG hit to the "correct" enemy or you need to get good items like "rip and tear" + C4 + Dynamite.

Most effective for me so far was "build SMG's with lifesteal and play like any other character"... sadly.

That's the case with a lot of characters sadly.

[TheLuckyAce]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

The videos I've seen people play the Lich they seem to "ignore" the health damage feature as much as possible and play "normal" with him.
So I've tried to use the Lich as well with his passive and it feels... bad. To build. around it you are depending 100% on RNG hit to the "correct" enemy or you need to get good items like "rip and tear" + C4 + Dynamite.

Most effective for me so far was "build SMG's with lifesteal and play like any other character"... sadly.

That's the case with a lot of characters sadly.

Sure, but for comparison the "Lucky" has a passive which is somewhat similar to the Lich, but due to the fact that you want to pick up money anyway and getting luck as a stat is not bad... it does "add up" to your gameplay.

But besides from specific characters you just do not want to get hit... so the passiv triggers nearly never if you play "good" and if it triggers it hits something useless most of the time.
So it brings nothing "more" to the run.

A solution would be -> "It can trigger if you WOULD heal."
So if you have 100% health and Lifesteal triggers? Lich Passiv deals damage. You regen Health through Reg.Stat at 100%? Trigger.

Suddenly the Mechanic has a use ;)

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

Sure, but for comparison the "Lucky" has a passive which is somewhat similar to the Lich, but due to the fact that you want to pick up money anyway and getting luck as a stat is not bad... it does "add up" to your gameplay.

But besides from specific characters you just do not want to get hit... so the passiv triggers nearly never if you play "good" and if it triggers it hits something useless most of the time.
So it brings nothing "more" to the run.

A solution would be -> "It can trigger if you WOULD heal."
So if you have 100% health and Lifesteal triggers? Lich Passiv deals damage. You regen Health through Reg.Stat at 100%? Trigger.

Suddenly the Mechanic has a use ;)

Yeah that seem better.

[Irie]

Anyone playing Lich normally is ignoring an insane amount of damage very easily. Lich is awful at endless IMO. But they are probably one of the easiest characters to get a D5 normal clear on. Ignore all specific weapon stats. Health is your damage, regen is your attack speed. I have had wave 20 clears where his passive did 100's of thousands damage by the end. It is a very fun potato for normal. Heblows in endless though. Need to build him like other potatos and get no benefit really from the passive.

Quick edit - If his passive triggered at full health Lich would be broken af. That is not a solution.

[Bumc]

Just nerf the numbers then on passive and make it trigger on full health.
Or better yet, give him Sick treatment where he loses health on his own even without blood donation (and also nerf the numbers a bit).

[Skiiage]

If we are looking for ways to buff Lich to make it more reliable, I would just give the health damage the same target selection as weapons instead of proccing on some random dude on the other side of the map.

You could probably make it do half the damage it does now and Lich would still be insanely strong. And finally able to kill Elites.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Irie:

Anyone playing Lich normally is ignoring an insane amount of damage very easily. Lich is awful at endless IMO. But they are probably one of the easiest characters to get a D5 normal clear on. Ignore all specific weapon stats. Health is your damage, regen is your attack speed. I have had wave 20 clears where his passive did 100's of thousands damage by the end. It is a very fun potato for normal. Heblows in endless though. Need to build him like other potatos and get no benefit really from the passive.

Quick edit - If his passive triggered at full health Lich would be broken af. That is not a solution.

For that build to do well you need insane amount of RNG. You need all the good ♥♥♥♥♥, Couch, Medikits, Potion, Extra Stomach, Sad Tomato, Paddings, early Piggy Bank, early Crown etc

I just tried your build, not that good without all those nice items. And I tried to get as much HP and Regen as I could. Both bosses did die with about 20 seconds left on the clock.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939901568

Not once during this run did I feel like I was playing a particularly powerful class. In my opinion, Lich does much more consistently well if you go full Choppers and build him like a standard melee, with the Lich buffs being your bonus AoE dmg (kind of like the Luck-based dmg items are)

As a comparison, this Lich run was much better than that one, it felt powerful and its much easier to set up, no need for any crazy RNG.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2937628397

And on the subject of changing Lich to better work like a Lich, could do something like "HP Regen modifications are -100%", and change the way lifesteal works with him in some interesting way. Lich is all about stealing the lifeforce of others (and commanding undead, but no summons in the game sadly)

[Irie]

Originally posted by thunda:

Originally posted by Irie:

Anyone playing Lich normally is ignoring an insane amount of damage very easily. Lich is awful at endless IMO. But they are probably one of the easiest characters to get a D5 normal clear on. Ignore all specific weapon stats. Health is your damage, regen is your attack speed. I have had wave 20 clears where his passive did 100's of thousands damage by the end. It is a very fun potato for normal. Heblows in endless though. Need to build him like other potatos and get no benefit really from the passive.

Quick edit - If his passive triggered at full health Lich would be broken af. That is not a solution.

For that build to do well you need insane amount of RNG. You need all the good ♥♥♥♥♥, Couch, Medikits, Potion, Extra Stomach, Sad Tomato, Paddings, early Piggy Bank, early Crown etc

I just tried your build, not that good without all those nice items. And I tried to get as much HP and Regen as I could. Both bosses did die with about 20 seconds left on the clock.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939901568

Not once during this run did I feel like I was playing a particularly powerful class. In my opinion, Lich does much more consistently well if you go full Choppers and build him like a standard melee, with the Lich buffs being your bonus AoE dmg (kind of like the Luck-based dmg items are)

As a comparison, this Lich run was much better than that one, it felt powerful and its much easier to set up, no need for any crazy RNG.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2937628397

And on the subject of changing Lich to better work like a Lich, could do something like "HP Regen modifications are -100%", and change the way lifesteal works with him in some interesting way. Lich is all about stealing the lifeforce of others (and commanding undead, but no summons in the game sadly)

I personally wouldn't go cleavers, I would use a support item to get extra harvesting cause again, weapon dmg doesn't matter. Cleavers increasing the healing from fruit is also bad. Healing for 1 is the same as healing for 10, asfar as damage output is concerned, though I do see you grabbed a few worms to counter that. You want to heal 1 health at a time as fast as possible, so yea regen or lifesteal are great. Big fruit heals are working against your goal.

[thunda]

I understand the concept that big consumable heals work against me, but the problem is that stacking enough HP Regen is just impossible unless you get very lucky. Even with that 70 Regen it only triggered just shy of 6 times per second, which is not enough.

I was running head first into mobs anyway to stay damaged. So it didnt really matter in that run.

[Irie]

Here's a run I just started and how it is looking.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939915120

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939915182

[thunda]

Originally posted by Irie:

Here's a run I just started and how it is looking.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939915120

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939915182

Why are you taking Cyberballs? The -50% to dmg modifications means you'll never get decent dmg out of them

[Irie]

Originally posted by thunda:

Originally posted by Irie:

Here's a run I just started and how it is looking.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939915120

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939915182

Why are you taking Cyberballs? The -50% to dmg modifications means you'll never get decent dmg out of them

It was just an early crate item, but that run died to the early elite, was the summoner. Next run was better, I got 2 swarms early then an elite on 18. Heres the shop after wave 20 with the dmg stat from the passive.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939933394

I grabbed the bandana from a crate because eventually I will switch to potato throwers if I get enough Gardens. Have the Tardigrade because eventually in endless you cant rely on his passive anymore and just need to scale health for the fruit explosions

[Irie]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2939939322

It went to wave 27 on the passive / consumable explosions. Passive did 1,015,793. Consumables did 619089.