Armor vs Hp. Discussion about the mechanic.

[Sir Spartalot 1. Peeker]

Each point of armor increases effective HP by 10 percent.
So which ratio of armor to HP makes mathematically sense?
You also have to consider that you gain 3 times more hp than armor, for equal rarity skills.

The other factor I can think of is lifesteal and hp regeneration:
HP regen makes raw hp more important
,while lifesteal (and other healing effects like the healing tower) make armor more important.

What do you guys think about this mechanic? What is your rule of thumb. I would be interested to hear about it

[nash]

So the easiest first: I feel like life leech is only really worth it if you either got like 2 smg/miniguns or at least a huge attack speed boost from your character class. Feels totally underwhelming otherwise.

Haven't done any math about it, usually get as much damage as needed and while trying to balance the other things. usually like 12% health regeneration, 15 armor, 65 hp and around 15% run speed. Dont mind dodging btw.

[Draednaught]

Originally posted by nash:

So the easiest first: I feel like life leech is only really worth it if you either got like 2 smg/miniguns or at least a huge attack speed boost from your character class. Feels totally underwhelming otherwise.

Haven't done any math about it, usually get as much damage as needed and while trying to balance the other things. usually like 12% health regeneration, 15 armor, 65 hp and around 15% run speed. Dont mind dodging btw.

I agree, lifesteal is only powerful in two situations: When you have a massive amount (like with medical weapons) or when you have absurdly high hit weapons like minigun or shotgun. Outside of that I prefer Monkey / Regen for recovery. Consumables can be viable with enough luck but I don't trust it enough to try.

[Casurin]

Both.
To higher your HP the more effective HP a single point of armor gives. Armor has the benefit that it scales very well with flat heals - healing-drone, healing-items etc.

Lifesteal - oh it can be very much worth it. You do not need to have insane attack-speed, just hitting many enemies all the time. So melee with range, penetration, explosion.

[Bing Bringer]

Originally posted by nash:

So the easiest first: I feel like life leech is only really worth it if you either got like 2 smg/miniguns or at least a huge attack speed boost from your character class. Feels totally underwhelming otherwise.

Haven't done any math about it, usually get as much damage as needed and while trying to balance the other things. usually like 12% health regeneration, 15 armor, 65 hp and around 15% run speed. Dont mind dodging btw.

Goes to show how insanely balanced brotato is. I go hard into regen and less armour generally and win.

There's so many ways to play this game, I'm not sure there is a "right" way.

Life steal does suck though as a stat without lifesteal weapons.

Like I just had 6 miniguns on ranger and still had to choose regen over lifesteal.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Kookaburra:

Originally posted by nash:

So the easiest first: I feel like life leech is only really worth it if you either got like 2 smg/miniguns or at least a huge attack speed boost from your character class. Feels totally underwhelming otherwise.

Haven't done any math about it, usually get as much damage as needed and while trying to balance the other things. usually like 12% health regeneration, 15 armor, 65 hp and around 15% run speed. Dont mind dodging btw.

Goes to show how insanely balanced brotato is.

You mean insanely unbalanced. The balance in this game is a joke.

[flameDjinn]

Originally posted by Sir Spartalot 1. Peeker:

Each point of armor increases effective HP by 10 percent.
So which ratio of armor to HP makes mathematically sense?

If this is true, then, at lvl 20 you have ~30hp, because you get 1hp per lvl.

To double 30 hp, we need another 30 hp which is
tier 4 + tier 4 + tier 2 hp upgrades => 12 tiers => 12 + 12 + 6 = 30hp

To double 30 hp with armor you need 10 armor, which is also
tier 4 + tier 4 + tier 2 armor upgrades => 12 tiers => 4 + 4 + 2 = 10 armor

To double 30 hp with dodge you need 50% dodge wich is
tier 4 + tier 4 + tier 4 + tier 4 + tier 1 => 17 tiers => 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 3 = 51 % dodge.
So at low lvls dodge ~1.5 times less effective, than hp or armor, but dodge scales better when you past 50%, i.e if you reach 60%. I am lazy to make exact math...

So optimal ratio is 30 hp, 0 ar (30 EHP) => 60hp, 10 ar (120 EHP) => 90hp, 20 ar (270 EHP).


If you have 60 hp, 10 ar, 90 EHP
+ 30 hp => 90 hp, 10 ar, 180 EHP
+ 10 ar => 60hp, 20 ar, 180 EHP
+ 30 dodge => 60 hp, 10 ar, 30% dodge, 128 EHP
(90 EHP / 0.7 = 128 EHP)

If you have 90 hp, 20 ar, 270 EHP
+ 30 hp => 120 hp, 20 ar, 360 EHP
+ 10 ar => 90hp, 30 ar, 360 EHP
+ 30 dodge => 90 hp, 20 ar, 30% dodge, 385 EHP
(270 EHP / 0.7 = 385 EHP)

In last example lets assume that intstead of getting 20 armor and 30% dodge, you decide to invest in hp => 90 hp + 60 hp + 30hp = 180 hp, 180 EHP. And as you see 180 is far lower than 385 :)

[Eggplant]

Originally posted by felix:

Originally posted by Sir Spartalot 1. Peeker:

Each point of armor increases effective HP by 10 percent.
So which ratio of armor to HP makes mathematically sense?

To double 30 hp with armor you need 10 armor, which is also
tier 4 + tier 4 + tier 2 armor upgrades => 12 tiers => 4 + 4 + 2 = 10 armor

This is an old thread that was posted before the recent patch that nerfed Armor. It's +6.67% EHP per point now. So you need 15 Armor to double your EHP (50% DR), 30 to triple it (67% DR), 45 to quadruple it (75% DR), etc.

[flameDjinn]

Ok, seems now 45 hp = 15 ar = 45 dodge

If you have 30 hp
+ 45 hp => 75 hp, 75 EHP
+ 15 ar => 30, hp, 15 ar, 60 EHP
+ 45 dodge => 30 hp, 45 dodge, 54 EHP

If you have 45 hp
+ 45 hp => 90 hp, 90 EHP
+ 15 ar => 45 hp, 15 ar, 90 EHP
+ 45 dodge => 45 hp, 45 dodge, 81 EHP

If you have 60 hp, 5ar, 15 dodge, (60 * 1.33 / 0.85 = 94 EHP)
+ 30 hp => 90 hp, 5 ar, 15 dodge, 141 EHP
+ 10 ar => 60 hp, 15 ar, 15 dodge, 141 EHP
+ 30 dodge => 60 hp, 5 ar, 45 dodge, 145 EHP

Conclusion
Seems now before 45 hp, taking hp gives your more EHP, than armor or dodge. After they becomes equal. So optimal ratio is
45 hp => 60 hp, 5 ar, 15 dodge => 75 hp, 10 ar, 30 dodge => 90 hp, 15 ar, 45 dodge
45 EHP => 94 EHP => 179 EHP => 327 EHP

[Eggplant]

Originally posted by felix:

Conclusion
Seems now before 45 hp, taking hp gives your more EHP, than armor or dodge. After they becomes equal. So optimal ratio is
45 hp => 60 hp, 5 ar, 15 dodge => 75 hp, 10 ar, 30 dodge => 90 hp, 15 ar, 45 dodge
45 EHP => 94 EHP => 179 EHP => 327 EHP

Going for the optimal ratio is... not actually optimal IMO. The other factor you have to consider is that Armor and Dodge both make it easier to heal the damage you take (ie if you take 50% less damage, you need half as much healing to recover from damage received), but increasing Max HP doesn't.

Since the nerf that changed HP Regen to not be a % of Max HP anymore, I usually don't push Max HP past ~60 unless I see an item with a large increase or a level up with a higher rarity than usual. Excluding certain characters (like Ghost) of course. I'd rather keep pushing Armor and/or Dodge since those also help me sustain my HP.

[flameDjinn]

Originally posted by Eggplant:

Going for the optimal ratio is... not actually optimal IMO.

Agree, it's just some tip. So if you have huge hp and armor, but zero dodge, you can understand that taking some dodge will give you more survivability, than anything else