Vengeful Guardian: Moonrider

Vengeful Guardian: Moonrider

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Raster Jan 12, 2023 @ 8:39pm
Criticisms
1) The game lacks difficulty options, making in unapproachable for most players.

2) There's an odd "feel" with the controls and hitboxes. Sometimes you need to be at full rest for multiple frames for a triple slash to be possible, as the game still thinks you're moving and gives you the walk slash. The triple slash doesn't always come out when you mash. Seems like the timing has to be more precise. There's a general unresponsive, jerky feel

3) Your jump is too vertical, and lacks horizontal velocity. This is somewhat resolved by running and jumping, but that becomes your default jumping method for 90% of the leaps in the game. If you're doing something that often, a good design sensibility is to make that the default. Requiring two or more buttons to perform a common, basic function isn't a good idea.

4) Speaking of inputs, special attacks often fire off twice or more occasionally, even if you focus on the lightest one frame taps of your life. Great for DPS on bosses, bad everywhere else in the game.

5) There's no option to disable double tapping to run

6) Lots of screen tear and no visual options to resolve it outside of running in windowed

7) There's no reason for power ups to vanish, especially 1ups, outside of a desire to adhere to arbitrary design choices held over from arcade games.

8) Some enemy emplacements, namely the roof cannons that fire grenades in the Laser Research Base, are impossible to deal with without taking damage. You have to stay ducked in place to avoid the lasers, so you get pegged by grenades you can't react to, and you can't clear out the enemy. Having more than one playtester might have alleviated this. Maybe you get a power up to attack vertically, but needing a specific unlockable to deal with a basic situation is a design no-no.

If you're on the fence about this game, I'm not sure I can recommend it. I've always found Joy Masher games kind of charming, and visually appealing, but as always, the difficulty comes more from frustrating design choices and control issues and less from well-designed encounters.
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Showing 1-15 of 24 comments
Raster Jan 12, 2023 @ 9:08pm 
9) The rate at which you flash when hit makes it difficult to see where you are, especially when visually busy attacks like Stormdiver's desperation attack are on-screen. I lose track of my character often.
Last edited by Raster; Jan 12, 2023 @ 9:08pm
OldManSkills Jan 13, 2023 @ 1:23am 
the jumping really seems off , making the platforming not really fun
DrMidnight Jan 13, 2023 @ 4:27am 
Yeah running and jumping feels kinda off, i agree. Also, if you run and jump and let go of the sprint button mid air, you drop like a rock. All momentum almost compleatly gone.

Also a tad annoying that you cant see on the map when selecting stages how many items you have found on each stage.

The boss difficulty is all over the place. Most bosses are way to easy while some actualy pose a challenge.

Also almost compleatly lost my sh*t on that section on the laser stage where you have to jump on moving platforms while avoiding the turrets on the cieling to get to a chip.

I like the game but i doubt i will play it as much as the rest of the games they have released so far.
1gga Jan 13, 2023 @ 7:04am 
I have no idea why developers didn't use spinning jump animation for ''double jump'' only, sometimes the platforming feels unsatisfying.
wolfinston85 Jan 13, 2023 @ 11:28am 
I really like how the game plays, but I do agree the game would benefit from harder difficulty settings, maybe like a toggle that you can enable, something that doesn't only change how much damage the enemies do, but also how many enemies there are in the levels, stuff like that.
Gurk Jan 13, 2023 @ 2:51pm 
You can hit the granades and they will go back to the canon and destroy them.

I agree with the input issues, I find myself sometime massing the special button but nothing happens until further attemps.

I would like also be able to skip the credits the second time you attemp the last level to check faster if I improved my rank.
RageCannon Jan 14, 2023 @ 5:53am 
About point 7,
Pickups vanish after a while (could be given more time ofc) because otherwise you will be encouraged to backtrack to a hp/mp refill.
猫猫猫猫 Jan 14, 2023 @ 12:19pm 
Originally posted by Raster:
1) The game lacks difficulty options, making in unapproachable for most players.

2) There's an odd "feel" with the controls and hitboxes. Sometimes you need to be at full rest for multiple frames for a triple slash to be possible, as the game still thinks you're moving and gives you the walk slash. The triple slash doesn't always come out when you mash. Seems like the timing has to be more precise. There's a general unresponsive, jerky feel

3) Your jump is too vertical, and lacks horizontal velocity. This is somewhat resolved by running and jumping, but that becomes your default jumping method for 90% of the leaps in the game. If you're doing something that often, a good design sensibility is to make that the default. Requiring two or more buttons to perform a common, basic function isn't a good idea.

4) Speaking of inputs, special attacks often fire off twice or more occasionally, even if you focus on the lightest one frame taps of your life. Great for DPS on bosses, bad everywhere else in the game.

5) There's no option to disable double tapping to run

6) Lots of screen tear and no visual options to resolve it outside of running in windowed

7) There's no reason for power ups to vanish, especially 1ups, outside of a desire to adhere to arbitrary design choices held over from arcade games.

8) Some enemy emplacements, namely the roof cannons that fire grenades in the Laser Research Base, are impossible to deal with without taking damage. You have to stay ducked in place to avoid the lasers, so you get pegged by grenades you can't react to, and you can't clear out the enemy. Having more than one playtester might have alleviated this. Maybe you get a power up to attack vertically, but needing a specific unlockable to deal with a basic situation is a design no-no.

If you're on the fence about this game, I'm not sure I can recommend it. I've always found Joy Masher games kind of charming, and visually appealing, but as always, the difficulty comes more from frustrating design choices and control issues and less from well-designed encounters.

Reading your post I agree with some things, but some I have some comments on others to make.
1) The game difficulty for me feels like an Easy mode, so for me I would like harder modes. I feel it is an Easy mode at the moment for the following reasons. You have lots of starting lives and checkpoints. Every level gives extra lives. Even on gameover if you have progressed far enough into a stage you can start there. Usually around the halfway point. After a gameover you get the Armor chip that reduces damage by about half. With the armor chip you can pretty much just run through the level tanking hits to at least get to another checkpoint without dying. Every stage generously gives both health and energy drops at pretty regular intervals. If you die at a boss / miniboss you restart right at them if it is not a gameover. The enemy specials you get can do massive damage to normal enemies and bosses. There is a save system after milestones. You can revisit stages to get chips you missed unlike some harder games. After getting a chip in a level you can just exit out and keep the chip. I mean if you have Armor and the Health Regen chip or the Bloodlust(?) chip (Gaining Health after Killing an Enemy chip) it is pretty hard to die in the stages.
2) I agree that there is some oddness with whether the game thinks you are in a running state or walking state at some points. I would be running, then jump but the normal walking speed jump comes out. Usually resulting in my falling down or taking a hit. I am wondering if it's because i am stationary for a frame and then jump or something. Or if I am slightly releasing pressure from the run button? Don't know.
3) The vertical jump feels appropriate for the game. Reminds me of Hagane and Shinobi 3.
4) I did not have the issue with the special going off multiple times. I do have an issue with the Moonlance, or whatever the starting special name is. I would use it, but sometimes it won't get in the full 3 hits.
5) I have two friends that tried the game and one dislikes the double tap for run, yet the other loves the double tap for run. I think having the option to disable double tap for run would be a good idea since it seems some people don't like it at all. I never noticed it being an issue.
6) Never got visual tearing.
7) Never saw a power up vanish. How long do you have to wait for that to happen?
8) You can hit the grenades with your sword to shoot them back at the cannons. The only issue i had with them was when i hit them from the opposite direction, meaning i struck it while being placed between the grenade and the cannon, the grenade shot bounced in the wrong direction once and hit me. Otherwise no problems.
9) Not really sure what kind of effect you are seeing here. Thought it was pretty easy to follow where the character was even after getting hit.

To add another request of my own, I think the down jump kick needs a wider hit box to hit. I swear the sprite is overlapping with an enemy yet I just land or bounce off the enemy then take damage. The diagonal jump kick works great though.
Last edited by 猫猫猫猫; Jan 14, 2023 @ 12:24pm
Raster Jan 14, 2023 @ 1:00pm 
Originally posted by RageCannon:
About point 7,
Pickups vanish after a while (could be given more time ofc) because otherwise you will be encouraged to backtrack to a hp/mp refill.

So, as a game designer, I can understand that fear. In a game like this, there's a little exploration, but the focus is on speed and forward momentum. You don't want players backtracking or dawdling. Every system in the game points to moving forward at all times.

However, there are more elegant ways to dissuade backtracking behavior than having power ups, even 1ups, vanish because an enemy appears and knocks me back and I can't get to them before they disappear. It's happened a couple times, and it didn't keep me from beating the game, but it was a net player-negative experience for someone who was engaging with the game on its terms and trying to play it the way the developer intended.

Given how often you see power-ups, most players are trained to expect them coming up before a boss or after a difficult section, so the thought of backtracking would be considered outlying behavior, and not worth punishing the rest of the user base. It's not a huge issue overall, but one that struck me as largely arbitrary, given that the game does a good job of discouraging you from ever looking back.
EnemyStarship Jan 14, 2023 @ 11:54pm 
I'll be honest, I enjoyed it for a bit, but the reliance on 'old' design ideas cheapened the game for me and ended with me bailing on it to not return. I have no problem with difficult games, but when an encounter is hard because it's poorly designed and cheap, that's no fun for me. I don't feel it would be right for me to refund it, as I've streamed/recorded myself playing it, but there's point at which design choices go from 'classic'/'old school' to 'cheap' and 'old' in a bad way - like, there's a reason games have moved away from those design choices...
Wayne❖Culto Jan 16, 2023 @ 9:45am 
man i hope the devs don't listen to any of the advice in this thread.

You want a harder Difficulty? use the Chip that kills you in one hit, you clear the game with that then you have my respect.
You want an Easier mode - use the Chip that cuts damage in half but restricts your rank

Combat is balanced and alot of fun. there is alot of tech to discover like jump canceling attacks (it deals DMG fast).

The game is fine as it is, and it rewards skillful play. A great successor to Shinobi III and Hagane, and love letter to the peak of action platformers
Last edited by Wayne❖Culto; Jan 16, 2023 @ 10:14am
Raster Jan 16, 2023 @ 10:39am 
Originally posted by Wayne❖Culto:
man i hope the devs don't listen to any of the advice in this thread.

You want a harder Difficulty? use the Chip that kills you in one hit, you clear the game with that then you have my respect.
You want an Easier mode - use the Chip that cuts damage in half but restricts your rank

Combat is balanced and alot of fun. there is alot of tech to discover like jump canceling attacks (it deals DMG fast).

The game is fine as it is, and it rewards skillful play. A great successor to Shinobi III and Hagane, and love letter to the peak of action platformers

A couple of things:

1) It's a list of criticisms, not a list of "dev pls fix" suggestions. The game is what it is. I accept what it is and work within that design when I play it. I meet the game on its own terms while still wishing certain things had been different. Nobody is expecting Joy Masher to make giant changes and ruin your game.

2) The one-hit-death chip is neat, and so is the armor chip, but if you think that the difference in challenge between playing as normal, playing with armor, and playing with one hit death, is even, then I know you've never made a game.

I'm glad you're enjoying it, and it hits all the marks for you! "The game is fine as it is" is kind of a blanket statement, and implies your experience is universal. Which is incredibly egotistical. But that's your journey.
Mr. Brokencyde Jan 16, 2023 @ 1:09pm 
Originally posted by Wayne❖Culto:
You want a harder Difficulty? use the Chip that kills you in one hit, you clear the game with that then you have my respect.
You want an Easier mode - use the Chip that cuts damage in half but restricts your rank
Having nothing between an easy regular clear and an unreasonably punishing, undeniably lazy "dude you die in 1 hit lmao" clear is silly and it is perfectly reasonable to ask for some actual well thought out harder difficulty options

I agree on easy mode though. This game does not need any easier options. It's already not very hard and it has an easy mode built in, you just have to unlock it by gameovering once (something you would expect someone bad enough at these games to need an easy mode to do pretty early).
If anything, it was slightly annoying to run through all the stages looking for the last chip only to realize I had to unlock it by deliberately losing lol. Part of the problem there being that you have to clear a stage again to see if you're missing chips in it. In general, the stage select is a little clunky, should display more information and I dislike how you have to let the text play out every time you select a level.
Logoth Jan 16, 2023 @ 5:04pm 
Certain weapons are radically overpowered. specifically the void tentacle. I had to stop using it against bosses because they just would die to this before they could even cycle through their moveset.

I found I got used to a lot of the other quirks as they seem to be deliberate choices the devs made.
Name Jan 17, 2023 @ 9:53am 
There are to many animations that rely on rotating pixels. This looks to much like flash animations for me personaly.

By the way, overall this game is amazing.

But i spot those fash moments instantly.
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