Hope you have learned your lesson from the Mafia 3 !!! also NO DEI, NO WOKE !!!

[Ozan Guven #IckiliydiBilmemNe]

No DEI, No Woke !! Just a good old MAFIA game we know and love.

Make this a good one and we'll forget about the Mafia 3.

[Mechthorian]

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

Publicado originalmente por Mechthorian:

Mafia 3 was about the conflict between various factions of organized crime, including the black mob, the haitian mob, the irish mob, and yes, the italian mob.

All of these factions existed historically, and Marcano's Italian mob never allowed Lincoln or any other black person as anything higher than an associate.

Lincoln's story is one of revenge as he forges alliances between these different factions to take a stab at the bigger fish.

What about this setting is historically inaccurate?

First, using the term 'mob' and slapping any random ethnicity on it. Second, portraying what would at best be ethnic street gangs as equal to centuries old, traditon and ritual filled organizations that are ethnically exclusive. Third, by 1969 most of the power of mafioso had been stripped through death or imprisonment except for deep political corruption and very little street crime, fourth the hamfisted plot tries to tie the mafia to the jfk assassination and while that link is quite provably there in reality, its done through implying any black troops would have been involved enough with macvsog to actually know one of the only 7 CIA agents involved in it.

These aren't "random ethnicities" or "street gangs" lol. Black organized crime dates back to the 19th century, and they became well known for running numbers rackets in the early 20th century. In 1968, there was even a full "black mafia" formed by Samuel Christian in Philadelphia, reaching its height in the 1970s.

The game actually deals with Marcano losing his power, since his entire end goal is to build a casino and go straight. He also has half the city in his pocket, so it makes sense that he hadn't been arrested by that point.

The JFK thing only comes in at the very end. It is a bit ham-fisted, but even then definitely not "woke."

[identifiedasbeingdisrespectful]

Publicado originalmente por Mechthorian:

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

First, using the term 'mob' and slapping any random ethnicity on it. Second, portraying what would at best be ethnic street gangs as equal to centuries old, traditon and ritual filled organizations that are ethnically exclusive. Third, by 1969 most of the power of mafioso had been stripped through death or imprisonment except for deep political corruption and very little street crime, fourth the hamfisted plot tries to tie the mafia to the jfk assassination and while that link is quite provably there in reality, its done through implying any black troops would have been involved enough with macvsog to actually know one of the only 7 CIA agents involved in it.

These aren't "random ethnicities" or "street gangs" lol. Black organized crime dates back to the 19th century, and they became well known for running numbers rackets in the early 20th century. In 1968, there was even a full "black mafia" formed by Samuel Christian in Philadelphia, reaching its height in the 1970s.

The game actually deals with Marcano losing his power, since his entire end goal is to build a casino and go straight. He also has half the city in his pocket, so it makes sense that he hadn't been arrested by that point.

The JFK thing only comes in at the very end. It is a bit ham-fisted, but even then definitely not "woke."

Point to a single post where I said it was woke. It is, but I haven't said that until now. And yes, implying any black troops would be that deep in macvsog is indeed woke. It's anachronistic for the sake of shoving an African into the plot point they wanted.

Using the term mafia for anything but italian organized crime is 'cultural appropriation' isn't it? You going to call a medieval knight a samurai?

Yes, black people have been involved in organized crime, however the scenario presented never existed. The only place with any real friction in that manner was Cincinnati during prohibition because of the proximity to import candian whiskey. You're trying to compare two years of claimed controlling one city to groups that controlled multiple nations for decades and in some cases centuries. Yes, street gangs. Piddly ass thugs who don't realize the point is to make tax free money. Woke, stuffing in a race swap on a franchise that's very specific. If they'd just made him italian or even Jewish, it wouldn't have been such crap.

BTW, the 'black mafia' you're referring to controlled 'most' black areas of Philadelphia, hardly the city. Mostly robbery, stick ups, and drugs. Yeah, real comparable to the actual mafia.

[Mechthorian]

The United States military desegregated in 1948, which is 17 years before American escalation in Vietnam. There is absolutely nothing saying black troops couldn't have been deep in MACVSOG that long after desegregation.

It is most certainly "cultural appropriation"... and it's accurate. As the Sicilian Mafia declined in power, other groups took the name, the power, and not the traditions. The underworld doesn't care about retarded Tumblr speak.

I never said they were on equal ground, and neither does the game. At the very beginning, the game makes it crystal clear that Marcano runs the city, and all the other factions pay tribute to him. The only exception is the Haitians, and they're all the way out in the Bayou with barely a sheet to wipe with.

This status quo only changes as a result of player agency, and the player is free to give the entire city to Vito and his Italians if he so desires.

And for it to be a "race swap," Lincoln would need to be in the same position as any other made man, but that never happens. Lincoln never joins the mob, he fights his own war by creating an alliance between different factions.

[identifiedasbeingdisrespectful]

Publicado originalmente por Mechthorian:

The United States military desegregated in 1948, which is 17 years before American escalation in Vietnam. There is absolutely nothing saying black troops couldn't have been deep in MACVSOG that long after desegregation.

You don't know what macvsog was to make this claim, do you? The only time anyone could be involved with it was during the Vietnam War. Less than 1500 army troops, a handful of airforce and navy and SEVEN cia agents were the attache. No, there weren't blacks in it deep enough to personally know any of the CIA agents involved and probably none at all. You can't whine about racism and then claim the military being desegregated means everything was even in assignment. You're obtuse.

>durr underworld doesn't care about Tumblr speak
No, but mafiosi tend to care about non italians claiming to be mafiosi.

[Mechthorian]

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

Publicado originalmente por Mechthorian:

The United States military desegregated in 1948, which is 17 years before American escalation in Vietnam. There is absolutely nothing saying black troops couldn't have been deep in MACVSOG that long after desegregation.

You don't know what macvsog was to make this claim, do you? The only time anyone could be involved with it was during the Vietnam War. Less than 1500 army troops, a handful of airforce and navy and SEVEN cia agents were the attache. No, there weren't blacks in it.

Gee, I wonder what the "V" stands for. Real puzzler there lol. My point is at the time MACV was formed, the army was no longer segregated. This wasn't WWII.

It's semantics anyway since Lincoln was in the 223rd infantry and later the 5th SFG, not MACVSOG, and neither was Donovan. The 5th SFG and SOG even developed an intra-service rivalry around '67.

It's not unlikely that a soldier from the 5th SFG could become allies with a CIA operative in Vietnam.

[Mechthorian]

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

You can't whine about racism and then claim the military being desegregated means everything was even in assignment. You're obtuse.

When did I "whine about racism?"

You're making some deep claims about my politics that I never actually expressed.

[identifiedasbeingdisrespectful]

Publicado originalmente por Mechthorian:

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

You don't know what macvsog was to make this claim, do you? The only time anyone could be involved with it was during the Vietnam War. Less than 1500 army troops, a handful of airforce and navy and SEVEN cia agents were the attache. No, there weren't blacks in it.

Gee, I wonder what the "V" stands for. Real puzzler there lol. My point is at the time MACV was formed, the army was no longer segregated. This wasn't WWII.

It's semantics anyway since Lincoln was in the 223rd infantry and later the 5th SFG, not MACVSOG, and neither was Donovan. The 5th SFG and SOG even developed an intra-service rivalry around '67.

It's not unlikely that a soldier from the 5th SFG could become allies with a CIA operative in Vietnam.

Buddy, the idea of a black operator in that era is already laughable on its face. Psyops and teams have no room for racial tension reducing cohesion. Desegregation of regular units is not SF. The military was still very racist during Vietnam. It's anachronistic crap to shove things where they don't belong. The franchise is called mafia, not 'multi ethnic organized crime'

[Mechthorian]

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

Publicado originalmente por Mechthorian:

Gee, I wonder what the "V" stands for. Real puzzler there lol. My point is at the time MACV was formed, the army was no longer segregated. This wasn't WWII.

It's semantics anyway since Lincoln was in the 223rd infantry and later the 5th SFG, not MACVSOG, and neither was Donovan. The 5th SFG and SOG even developed an intra-service rivalry around '67.

It's not unlikely that a soldier from the 5th SFG could become allies with a CIA operative in Vietnam.

Buddy, the idea of a black operator in that era is already laughable on its face. Psyops and teams have no room for racial tension reducing cohesion. Desegregation of regular units is not SF. The military was still very racist during Vietnam. It's anachronistic crap to shove things where they don't belong. The franchise is called mafia, not 'multi ethnic organized crime'

You can go on google images right now and find pictures of black soldiers in the 5th SFG in Vietnam lol. You can even see the insignia on their berets. Yes, they were in the minority, and yes, they still faced discrimination and racism. They were still there.

You're acting like this was Battlefield 5 with a disabled chick fighting in the British army on a robotic leg. If you wanna call that garbage fire "woke," go right ahead. But Hanger 13 did their homework. Clearly more than you did. While the game's events are a work of historical fiction, the premise isn't outside the realm of historical plausibility.

[LightningPuppet]

Publicado originalmente por Lupo89:

Publicado originalmente por Sharkle_Bunwich²:

Obsessing over DEI and "wokeness" must be such a miserable way to live. Get real problems and you'll quickly realize the brown or gay people in your video games doesn't actually matter.

You got this all wrong champ. It is them who obsess over these forgetting the important part as developers making an actually good game.
Look at Wukong some journalists cried about lack of inclusion and diversity influencing the review towards negative. But more than 2 million people played it at same time. So no one gives a f.

2 million Chinese bots*

[Poly]

Publicado originalmente por Fuzzyballs01:

I played Mafia III more than the others
all I really want is a sandbox mode, you, running around the map, wear what you want, buy houses, do jobs, rob stores
whatever
thing like gta online but single player

Lol brother they have that, it's called GTA5.

[docup87]

Publicado originalmente por Fuzzyballs01:

I played Mafia III more than the others
all I really want is a sandbox mode, you, running around the map, wear what you want, buy houses, do jobs, rob stores
whatever
thing like gta online but single player

I liked the idea of renovating/upgrading the house in Mafia 3. I would also like to see this taken up again in the new Mafia and expanded even further. As well as the various “headquarters” that were spread all over the map.

[startrekmike]

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

Publicado originalmente por Sharkle_Bunwich²:

Obsessing over DEI and "wokeness" must be such a miserable way to live. Get real problems and you'll quickly realize the brown or gay people in your video games doesn't actually matter.

Does being assaulted repeatedly as a child count as 'real problems'? Because I had that happen and still don't want hamfisted diversity, equity, and inclusion ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in games. Why put wokeness in quotes? It's not made up, it's a term invented to pretend blaming whitey for everything is a viable strategy for explaining generational cultural failures.

So here is the thing. As much as some might like to argue otherwise, games are art. They are like films, television shows, and literature in that they use the strengths of the medium to tell a story and sometimes (like many other works of art) they will have challenging elements or strong social and/or political statements. This is just how it is. This is how art and (by extension) entertainment media works.

To put this another way. I am sure that someone watched 'The Wire' on TV and got upset that it highlighted the complicated nature of law enforcement and the "drug war". I am sure that some got upset that it wasn't just a very simple story about how horrible the gangs are and how altruistic and pure the cops are. There are probably even viewers who complain that it isn't like the old 'The Untouchables' TV program where everything is presented in very simple "good versus evil" terms. That the show has "too much progressive politics" and it "shoves its liberal agenda down the viewers throat" (or something to that effect). Does that change that 'The Wire' is one of the most acclaimed and famous television shows ever? Does that change that the show-runner very effectively used it as a platform to address a lot of things he actually experienced because sometimes that really is the point of artistic work? No. It doesn't.

With that said. What is your real problem here? You specifically state the following.

"Does being assaulted repeatedly as a child count as 'real problems'? Because I had that happen and still don't want hamfisted diversity, equity, and inclusion ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in games."

Read this quote carefully and really think about what you are saying. First off. You list off the very general "diversity, equality, and inclusion" elements as if they are somehow negative. That it is someone less artistically honest to write stories that feature diverse casts of characters (even when it is appropriate for the setting and story). Likewise. You say that creatively addressing equality is somehow bad even though some of most important classics across many artistic mediums have revolved around it. Finally. You go after "inclusion". This is an interesting one since you are essentially saying that only a certain kind of person should be catered to by the various artists, studios, and publishers involved in art/entertainment media.

Now. This is the part where you step in with "but I used the term hamfisted." Cool. What does that mean exactly? There is certainly a point where writers stumble quite obviously when it comes to tackling diversity, equality, and inclusion but that is more of a creative failure than one of political/social messaging. It does happen but just having those elements at all isn't a good reason to start whining about it. So. What do you really mean when you say "hamfisted"? It is obvious that you have been conditioned to very specifically focus (perhaps even hyper-focus) on any element that fits in some arbitrary (usually right-wing media/social media influenced) definition so is your obviously slanted, easily manipulated definition really useful here? It tells us that you have some issues with race and gender but it doesn't tell us anything about whatever art you choose to apply the "hamfisted diversity, equality, and inclusion" label to.

Whatever trauma you claim to have experienced (real or otherwise) doesn't give you license to tell others how to create a piece of art. It doesn't give you license to treat those who are different from you with arbitrary disrespect. If you really did experience trauma, you should be finding ways to recover and deal with that trauma in a helpful way and closing yourself off in walls of bigotry and hate won't do that. All it really does is make you one of the many lost souls who scream about "woke" conspiracies on steam forums.

[docup87]

Publicado originalmente por startrekmike:

Publicado originalmente por identifiedasbeingdisrespectful:

Does being assaulted repeatedly as a child count as 'real problems'? Because I had that happen and still don't want hamfisted diversity, equity, and inclusion ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in games. Why put wokeness in quotes? It's not made up, it's a term invented to pretend blaming whitey for everything is a viable strategy for explaining generational cultural failures.

So here is the thing. As much as some might like to argue otherwise, games are art. They are like films, television shows, and literature in that they use the strengths of the medium to tell a story and sometimes (like many other works of art) they will have challenging elements or strong social and/or political statements. This is just how it is. This is how art and (by extension) entertainment media works.

To put this another way. I am sure that someone watched 'The Wire' on TV and got upset that it highlighted the complicated nature of law enforcement and the "drug war". I am sure that some got upset that it wasn't just a very simple story about how horrible the gangs are and how altruistic and pure the cops are. There are probably even viewers who complain that it isn't like the old 'The Untouchables' TV program where everything is presented in very simple "good versus evil" terms. That the show has "too much progressive politics" and it "shoves its liberal agenda down the viewers throat" (or something to that effect). Does that change that 'The Wire' is one of the most acclaimed and famous television shows ever? Does that change that the show-runner very effectively used it as a platform to address a lot of things he actually experienced because sometimes that really is the point of artistic work? No. It doesn't.

With that said. What is your real problem here? You specifically state the following.

"Does being assaulted repeatedly as a child count as 'real problems'? Because I had that happen and still don't want hamfisted diversity, equity, and inclusion ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in games."

Read this quote carefully and really think about what you are saying. First off. You list off the very general "diversity, equality, and inclusion" elements as if they are somehow negative. That it is someone less artistically honest to write stories that feature diverse casts of characters (even when it is appropriate for the setting and story). Likewise. You say that creatively addressing equality is somehow bad even though some of most important classics across many artistic mediums have revolved around it. Finally. You go after "inclusion". This is an interesting one since you are essentially saying that only a certain kind of person should be catered to by the various artists, studios, and publishers involved in art/entertainment media.

Now. This is the part where you step in with "but I used the term hamfisted." Cool. What does that mean exactly? There is certainly a point where writers stumble quite obviously when it comes to tackling diversity, equality, and inclusion but that is more of a creative failure than one of political/social messaging. It does happen but just having those elements at all isn't a good reason to start whining about it. So. What do you really mean when you say "hamfisted"? It is obvious that you have been conditioned to very specifically focus (perhaps even hyper-focus) on any element that fits in some arbitrary (usually right-wing media/social media influenced) definition so is your obviously slanted, easily manipulated definition really useful here? It tells us that you have some issues with race and gender but it doesn't tell us anything about whatever art you choose to apply the "hamfisted diversity, equality, and inclusion" label to.

Whatever trauma you claim to have experienced (real or otherwise) doesn't give you license to tell others how to create a piece of art. It doesn't give you license to treat those who are different from you with arbitrary disrespect. If you really did experience trauma, you should be finding ways to recover and deal with that trauma in a helpful way and closing yourself off in walls of bigotry and hate won't do that. All it really does is make you one of the many lost souls who scream about "woke" conspiracies on steam forums.

100% I fully agree. Well put to the point.

[Naota]

Publicado originalmente por Sharkle_Bunwich²:

Obsessing over DEI and "wokeness" must be such a miserable way to live. Get real problems and you'll quickly realize the brown or gay people in your video games doesn't actually matter.

Being woke or advocating for DEI must be a miserable way to live your life.
The mafia didn't have "brown" people - they were ITALIAN.
What about that is so hard for you to understand?

[Trentscousin]

Publicado originalmente por Fuzzyballs01:

I played Mafia III more than the others
all I really want is a sandbox mode, you, running around the map, wear what you want, buy houses, do jobs, rob stores
whatever
thing like gta online but single player

Exactly right there with you, also Mafia 3 had the best shotgun results of almost any game past the 90's and SOF.