Is Leviathan Overtuned now, or am I just bad?

[Baron Dank'in Memes]

Hello all,

I haven't played DD2 in a few months and I remember Leviathan being pretty balanced. Basically, just go in with some kind of immobilisation ability and you'd be good. Leviathan threw out a lot of damage, but you could manage it.

I just tried it now and got obliterated. Granted, I got the classic Darkest Dungeon "the only RNG is bad RNG," but I still feel like I didn't even have a chance. Immobisation doesn't work anymore and it seems that Leviathan does WAY MORE DAMAGE than it use to (which was already very high).

Does Leviathan feel overtuned to you guys as well because I never remember getting turbo-smashed that hard by Leviathan a few months ago...

Cheers!

[QuartzBeam]

The only recent change to Leviathan was that it no longer consumes Dodge(+) token with its dodge-ignoring skills. Also, Immobilize has never worked against Undertow.

Personally, I used to be really averse to trying the Shroud and Leviathan because of how overtuned they were in EA, but Leviathan is oddly one of my most fought lair bosses in recent months. If only he didn't keep dropping the Beck and Call instead of a trophy that would actually be useful for my team...

[Guzu]

No big changes as far as I can remember. Root never worked against him, only move resistance. I'd say he's slightly stronger than the other lair bosses but not by a huge margin. However, the Shroud region itself is overtuned. With ordained you heroes can be downed in one-hit from 100% because...rng.

The thing with Shroud is it's the worst region to go to in terms of rewards. Boss trinkets, trophies and the inn items suck for most comps and the logic of higher risk = better rewards doesn't apply here.

[QuartzBeam]

Strong disagree on the Shroud's risk-vs-reward balance.

The Shroud is a bit harder than the other regions, sure, but I don't think the gap is anything to write home about. (Not anymore, anyway; it was pretty bad in EA.) The Fisherfolk might be strong, but they're very vulnerable to displacement, and once moved out of their preferred rank have no way to move themselves back into it:

• Captain can't use All Hands on Deck outside of rank 4, nor can Fish Monger use Whetstone.
  
• Bosun's entire moveset is rank-dependant; he can only push in ranks 1-2, pull in ranks 3-4, and stun in ranks 2-3.
  
• Docker can't use anything other than the relatively inoffensive Brine Bucket if you move him to the back ranks. And even if you can't, Weak and Blind works wonders against him.

And I certainly don't see what's so bad about the rewards either, for the most part.
The Distant trinkets are on par with what you get in the Foetor and Sprawl, with Pristine Lure, in particular, being really great for tanking or dishing out ripostes.
The Indelible Trinkets, well... Nautical Compass is usually an instant equip for me, Sodden Sweater and Carved Bodkin convert two very common negative effects into benefits, and Fisherman's Lure can get pretty crazy in the right hands.
The only thing I don't like getting from the Shroud is the Beck and Call, and that's only because I keep rolling it when my party has little to no bleed. The other trophies are much more widely applicable, though, and the Rising Tide (+2 combat item stacking) is easily one of my favorites overall.

[Guzu]

Originally posted by QuartzBeam:

The Fisherfolk might be strong, but they're very vulnerable to displacement, and once moved out of their preferred rank have no way to move themselves back into it:

They still have access to good moves, shuffling them does nothing. It's better to focus them down.

Captain can't use All Hands on Deck outside of rank 4, nor can Fish Monger use Whetstone.

They will use it turn 1 and with the ordained buff, you pretty much need an Occultist with some speed source to reliably outpace them.

Bosun's entire moveset is rank-dependant; he can only push in ranks 1-2, pull in ranks 3-4, and stun in ranks 2-3.

So no matter in what rank they are they will do something annoying. Giving a size 1 monster unconditional stun is a bad idea. They are usually low priority so they will be doing quite a bit of disturbance.

Docker can't use anything other than the relatively inoffensive Brine Bucket if you move him to the back ranks. And even if you can't, Weak and Blind works wonders against him.

He has 60% move res you won't be moving him much. If you pull something in front of him he still has access to everything. Hull Breaker doing 14-25 dmg or 38 crit is more damage than most bosses. With bad Captain rng he can get str+crit token and do over 50 dmg. Blind and dodge is unreliable, block (if it still remains on the tank after the other monsters had their go) barely prevents enough and can still result in deathsdoor. Same for weaken.

Also, don't forget about the special feature of the fog. Getting blinded when you need to land your crucial debuffs/dmg skills.

That's the point I was trying to make. There are so many layers of rng in the Shroud and a combination of just some of them can take a character down to 0% out of nowhere. Worst case the game doesn't even give you a chance to intervene stripping you of any player agency.

Here's one example of the dozens bad scenarios: Docker - Bosun - Captain
- Captain buffs his team with speed and either a defensive token or an offensive token
- One of your characters gets stunned
- If the token was offensive the Docker can bring a hero down to 0% hp in his next action
- if the token was defensive than focusing down one enemy is that much harder and possibly also to land debuffs

Round 2 comes up, you get fogged. The enemy team proceeds to do 3 actions in a row, chances are high someone is going to die before you can even take an action.

And I certainly don't see what's so bad about the rewards either, for the most part.
The Distant trinkets are on par with what you get in the Foetor and Sprawl, with Pristine Lure, in particular, being really great for tanking or dishing out ripostes.
The Indelible Trinkets, well... Nautical Compass is usually an instant equip for me, Sodden Sweater and Carved Bodkin convert two very common negative effects into benefits, and Fisherman's Lure can get pretty crazy in the right hands.
The only thing I don't like getting from the Shroud is the Beck and Call, and that's only because I keep rolling it when my party has little to no bleed. The other trophies are much more widely applicable, though, and the Rising Tide (+2 combat item stacking) is easily one of my favorites overall.

The Distant trinkets are on the same level but the benefiting classes and skills aren't the same.
HWM/Yellowhand - will do better with direct dmg trinkets since it affects all skills
Surgeon - will definitely do better with direct dmg trinkets on a 5-11 dmg base
Jester - maybe Intermezzo bleed pierce to guarantee the +50% on Finale but useless if played as a buffer
Berserker - this is the only path that might want them

Pristine Lure - is quite good
Seaman's Boots - are very mediocre, decent for transition
Fisherman's Line - 0,8 additional dmg from the bleed if you have the favorite toy memory without it's 0,6. I've used this trinket quite a bit and very often it was not pulling its weight and was replaced. Sparkleball is much better for debuffs and if you want dot dmg, you want to combine it with pierce paths and aoe to make it worth. Generally speaking with memory it's better to run the pierce + dot distant trinkets over this one.

Nautical Compass - good one

Carved Bodkin - the trigger chance is just too low. Even on a Ravager it's only a 3,5% chance or a 0,35dmg increase on average. I usually keep it in my pockets and swap it in for certain fights but even then it's not that spectacular. In the base case it performs roughly as good as a Sharpness Charm but completely based on rng, with downsides and requirements

Sodden Sweater - good for the regions but replaced for most mountain bosses

Trophies
The Lashing Tides - the 1/3 trophy you hope for because the other 2 suck. There are some interesting strategies you can pull off at the mountain but unlike many other trophies, this one requires due and early preparation. If you get it in the last region you're unlike to stack multiple bombs/traps etc.
The Beck and Call - you only want it if your team has at least 2 dedicated bleeders and if you've build a bleeder team and really want that trophy it's again 1/3 rng to make it work
The Undertow - why does this even exist? The fact they've added this item to his trophy pool makes him so much worse

[Do You Wumbo?]

I was able to beat Leviathan pretty easily using the upgraded smoke bomb skill from runaway. Stacking 2x blind on him every other turn makes his AoE not hard to deal with if you also have a vestal putting regen on everyone. I did also have a crusader to taunt and put mass regen on himself as well, though