Shambler's altar is still nonesensical, broken and outright stupid.

[[AMB]Messer]

I should not be punished for avoiding extremely difficult miniboss, who can be harder than some lair bosses. "Oh, your run has just begun and you're underequipped to fight the shambler? Here, have a -20% max hp, +20% breakdown chance, weak + vulnerable at the start of the every battle and lose a good token every round! Have fun, bozo."
F that, this is just RIDICULOUS. Avoiding the shambler fight from the altar absolutely SHOULD NOT be so punishing!
And before some MLG proz say "just avoid the altar, ez git gud", here's a reminder - road nodes STILL can all connect to a single and only encounter, and this encounter STILL can very much be a Shamber's altar. I think it's high time it get fixed, because as it stands right now it's just outright stupid. Imagine punished like that in DD1. Ironically it won't be that bad, because abandoning the mission in DD1 doesn't equal losing a run like it is in DD2.

[Loyal Cygnaran]

I think it's fine as is. Pushes you to take the fight instead of leave. I honestly find avoiding the fight worse for a run than taking the fight

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by Loyal Cygnaran:

I think it's fine as is. Pushes you to take the fight instead of leave. I honestly find avoiding the fight worse for a run than taking the fight

And that's EXACTLY why it's bad - it FORCES you to fight. As I said, it can be encountered very early on, with suboptimal party, or party damaged after the boss or something. So the shambler's altar is essentially "You're either punished or punished".

[Shiku]

Are you talking about the fight itself? I'm always happy to see this old "friend". I'd fight him more often if I could but it all comes down to rng nodes.
If you're complaining about bad rng of nodes (e.g. shambler on the first node of the run) I'm 100% with you here. They really need to take a look at the node & road events because getting full loathing out of nowhere is really not fun when you have 0 agency over it.

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by Swiftly:

Are you talking about the fight itself? I'm always happy to see this old "friend". I'd fight him more often if I could but it all comes down to rng nodes.
If you're complaining about bad rng of nodes (e.g. shambler on the first node of the run) I'm 100% with you here. They really need to take a look at the node & road events because getting full loathing out of nowhere is really not fun when you have 0 agency over it.

And not just an RGN of encountering this nod. I don't mind him returning as the optional challenge (even tho now it's not AS optional). It's more about options on how to deal with it. Like I said, It's easer a losing fight, or a negative trait that can jeopardize the entire run. Like the one I've described: -20% max hp, +20% breakdown chance, weak + vulnerable at the start of the every battle, lose a good token every round. That's just brutal and unfair

[Aria Kawa]

It can ruin any run easily coupled with the terribad NONSENSICAL RNG this game got.
I had spent a couple months without playing and then decided to go for one or two runs, but then my next run made me remember why I got so fed up with DD2.

Not only I managed to hit two shambler altars in a row, I had NO OPTION to run away from both fights because my characters decided not to. Did I had any bad quirk that would made them behave like that? Nope. They just decided that they wanted to fight.

The fun part is that I have over 250+ hours in this game, and I did managed to beath BOTH shamblers, but my party was so drained for the last fight in the zone that I lost. Not to mention, that running or fighting away from the shambler doesn't matter, since you can get a very bad quirk whatever you choose... and BOTH FIGHTS GAVE ME BAD QUIRKS.

Like, at least give an option for the players to choose a proper reward. Because both fights also rewarded me with trinkets that I had NO USE FOR.

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by Aria Kawa:

It can ruin any run easily coupled with the terribad NONSENSICAL RNG this game got.
I had spent a couple months without playing and then decided to go for one or two runs, but then my next run made me remember why I got so fed up with DD2.

Not only I managed to hit two shambler altars in a row, I had NO OPTION to run away from both fights because my characters decided not to. Did I had any bad quirk that would made them behave like that? Nope. They just decided that they wanted to fight.

The fun part is that I have over 250+ hours in this game, and I did managed to beath BOTH shamblers, but my party was so drained for the last fight in the zone that I lost. Not to mention, that running or fighting away from the shambler doesn't matter, since you can get a very bad quirk whatever you choose... and BOTH FIGHTS GAVE ME BAD QUIRKS.

Like, at least give an option for the players to choose a proper reward. Because both fights also rewarded me with trinkets that I had NO USE FOR.

Have to agree sadly. DD1 gave nearly OP ancestral trinkets for killing shambler, while in DD2 reward trinkets are VERY situational. "You get a huge benefit from this trinket only and ONLY if your hero at 5 stress, no more, no less". You'll lose not long before you balance out your stress to even benefit from the trinket.

[RopeDrink]

First of all, defeating Shamblers doesn't hinge on run progression -- much like every other lair and mini-boss -- it's just easier to do it after building some prog. Personally, I only ever take the Shambler pet with me (so I can gobble up cultist trinkets without needing to wear the secondary part), and even though doing so buffs Shambler encounters, I fight them every time I see them (despite only truly caring about maybe one trinket in the pool).

Much like Collector, Warlord, and Death (w/ FLA), you know they are a risk from the word GO and should plan accordingly, as sucky as it may be to find such a threat so early in the first region. In turn, if you decide to eat a bad quirk, then it's time to snoop for a hospital, quirk-removing items on the road, or provisions at the Inn.

Like it or not, it's an integral risk of the game - much like STS, which boils down to anticipating enemies on each floor, prepping for the boss at the end, being wise with routes, and trying to turn your so-so start into something strong + efficient before the top of the Spire (or mountain, in the case of DD2, which works in a very similar way).

You know Shambler is a potential node (or) that you might bump into them if the light goes out, so plan accordingly. If you really hate them -- or know you aren't using an anti-Shambler comp -- then keep the torch high and consider the risk of driving to Aca-Studies (whenever you have the option).

Personally, after 1k hours of DD2, I wager I've only lost 1-2 runs to a badly timed Shambler -- or good ole 'overconfidence' -- but hey, that's just me. Plan, prepare, and forge ahead.

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

First of all, defeating Shamblers doesn't hinge on run progression -- much like every other lair and mini-boss -- it's just easier to do it after building some prog. Personally, I only ever take the Shambler pet with me (so I can gobble up cultist trinkets without needing to wear the secondary part), and even though doing so buffs Shambler encounters, I fight them every time I see them (despite only truly caring about maybe one trinket in the pool).

Much like Collector, Warlord, and Death (w/ FLA), you know they are a risk from the word GO and should plan accordingly, as sucky as it may be to find such a threat so early in the first region. In turn, if you decide to eat a bad quirk, then it's time to snoop for a hospital, quirk-removing items on the road, or provisions at the Inn.

Like it or not, it's an integral risk of the game - much like STS, which boils down to anticipating enemies on each floor, prepping for the boss at the end, being wise with routes, and trying to turn your so-so start into something strong + efficient before the top of the Spire (or mountain, in the case of DD2, which works in a very similar way).

You know Shambler is a potential node (or) that you might bump into them if the light goes out, so plan accordingly. If you really hate them -- or know you aren't using an anti-Shambler comp -- then keep the torch high and consider the risk of driving to Aca-Studies (whenever you have the option).

Personally, after 1k hours of DD2, I wager I've only lost 1-2 runs to a badly timed Shambler -- or good ole 'overconfidence' -- but hey, that's just me. Plan, prepare, and forge ahead.

As mentioned before - shambler altar can appear as one of the first nodes of the very first area you choose. There's literally no time to prepare without some serious rng luck and well chosen party just for that. Which is still a very awful gameplay choise, as you're basically FORCED to make jack of all trades party for a marathon run. Why pick Leper then, if you prepare for shambler who will shuffle them? Why pick Runaway if you'll run into Sprawl where her main gimmic is limited? And again, it won't be that much of an issue if avoiding the fight wasn't punished and abandoning the run wasn't equal to death of your heroes, who may have locked traits and have memories bonuses. Once again, comparisson to DD1 - it has it's moments of single-option corridors, in which you might run into a shambler altar. You're NEVER forced to interract with it (and impulsive characters CANNOT activate the fight), you're never PUNISHED for avoiding the fight. And if we imagine that last two statements were true - you were NOT punished with heroes deaths for abandoning the mission. Loss of loot? Sure. Stress? Sure. Possibly a negative quick ot an illness? Sure. But the hero stays, all the upgrades stays. In DD2 It's all or nothing, make it to the inn or screw you. And that, in my opinion, is not a good design choice.

[Karlongkar]

that's how they intended to approach DD2 , it's a reset rouge-like. get bad rng run you can just simply restart.

yes i know it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but it's their game.

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by Karlongkar:

that's how they intended to approach DD2 , it's a reset rouge-like. get bad rng run you can just simply restart.

yes i know it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but it's their game.

Doesn't mean it can't be improved. Hard and luck-based approach can still be made fun and fair.

[RopeDrink]

As mentioned before - shambler altar can appear as one of the first nodes of the very first area you choose. There's literally no time to prepare without some serious rng luck and well chosen party just for that.

Once again, preparation begins at the crossroads and the first Inn. If an early Shambler is that much of a problem for you, then it's time to reconsider your start - no more or less than planning for the final boss of the act - accounting for Shamblers, Collectors, Warlords, Death, Lairs, and everything else along the way.

Just like DD1, HWM is one of the best anti-shamblers, with many others doing very well too. That doesn't mean you have to take HWM or [insert hero here] all the time for fear of a first-node Shambler, but you ARE expected to learn, calculate, and account for such risks.

As said, I can count my losses to early Shamblers on two fingers over 1k hours of outright refusing to flee from them (as a Shambler-Spawn enjoyer, which buffs the boss during battle), mostly because I opt for a good blend of mobility, flex, and sustain - which are no-brain positives against everything in the game - helping with any early-region lairs or mini-bosses. If you aren't feeling confident, you can simply cut your losses and push for quirk removal throughout the run via Hospital or Inn consumables.

This is all part and parcel of a game like this.

Which is still a very awful gameplay choise, as you're basically FORCED to make jack of all trades party for a marathon run.

You're not forced to do anything.

Indeed, generic gap-covering teams can account for more problems overall, whereas specialist teams are usually really, really good at countering very specific problems. The trick is finding a balance that suits you or your goal (eg. If you want to stomp A2, projection is of higher value than usual, and it's up to you if (and how) you fill that gap.

Like DD1, every boss is gimmick-based, and at some point, you will learn precisely which heroes or teams batter them all like a bad habit, thus easier to pick and mix for anticipated problems. You don't need dedicated uber-groups to stomp Shamblers -- not even first-node / first-region Shamblers -- but it pays to be prepared nonetheless.

Why pick Runaway if you'll run into Sprawl where her main gimmic is limited?

That applies to every dot-based hero - each having a less desirable region by osmosis - and it's not nearly as bad as implied, with RUN's main limitation being against the Librarian himself, but even then, she's great at managing the books. I take her to the Sprawl all the time with great success, much like you can take Blight comps through the Foetor just fine.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3081668533

The above is pretty old now, but it still applies after all the changes, with well-greased teams easily capable of covering for a slightly weaker link. You can stick to your Arsonist guns (with or without +res consumables for extra pep), invest in a less dot-based build, or if lucky, swap out a hero for a Bounty Hunter (if available), but personally, I only ever play Arsonist and always go to the Sprawl for burn-trinkets regardless.

If you think it's that big of a deal, then your problem goes much, much deeper than "X hero doesn't suit Y scenario", as that's a given in both games and something the player is expected to plan for (or at least account for at bare minimum).

Why pick Leper then, if you prepare for shambler who will shuffle them?

Leper is one of the most self-sustained heroes in the game. He can spam self-root as a DPS if desired, AoE or meat-shield clappers, and reset himself throughout the region without help. There's no shortage of heroes capable of putting him back into position or helping in other ways (eg. Crusader target root, Jester self-move or team-move skills, other mobile heroes, etc).

Granted, Leper is not optimal for a Shambler, just like Joe and Jane aren't the best at fighting Jim, but you aren't dissuaded from taking one just because shamblers exist. Later on, you may even acquire passive answers, such as the Waking Dream, and even if all that isn't enough, he is merely one out of four eggs in the Paper-Rock-Scissors basket.

The rest has already been addressed earlier.

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

As mentioned before - shambler altar can appear as one of the first nodes of the very first area you choose. There's literally no time to prepare without some serious rng luck and well chosen party just for that.

Once again, preparation begins at the crossroads and the first Inn. If an early Shambler is that much of a problem for you, then it's time to reconsider your start - no more or less than planning for the final boss of the act - accounting for Shamblers, Collectors, Warlords, Death, Lairs, and everything else along the way.

Just like DD1, HWM is one of the best anti-shamblers, with many others doing very well too. That doesn't mean you have to take HWM or [insert hero here] all the time for fear of a first-node Shambler, but you ARE expected to learn, calculate, and account for such risks.

As said, I can count my losses to early Shamblers on two fingers over 1k hours of outright refusing to flee from them (as a Shambler-Spawn enjoyer, which buffs the boss during battle), mostly because I opt for a good blend of mobility, flex, and sustain - which are no-brain positives against everything in the game - helping with any early-region lairs or mini-bosses. If you aren't feeling confident, you can simply cut your losses and push for quirk removal throughout the run via Hospital or Inn consumables.

This is all part and parcel of a game like this.

Which is still a very awful gameplay choise, as you're basically FORCED to make jack of all trades party for a marathon run.

You're not forced to do anything.

Indeed, generic gap-covering teams can account for more problems overall, whereas specialist teams are usually really, really good at countering very specific problems. The trick is finding a balance that suits you or your goal (eg. If you want to stomp A2, projection is of higher value than usual, and it's up to you if (and how) you fill that gap.

Like DD1, every boss is gimmick-based, and at some point, you will learn precisely which heroes or teams batter them all like a bad habit, thus easier to pick and mix for anticipated problems. You don't need dedicated uber-groups to stomp Shamblers -- not even first-node / first-region Shamblers -- but it pays to be prepared nonetheless.

Why pick Runaway if you'll run into Sprawl where her main gimmic is limited?

That applies to every dot-based hero - each having a less desirable region by osmosis - and it's not nearly as bad as implied, with RUN's main limitation being against the Librarian himself, but even then, she's great at managing the books. I take her to the Sprawl all the time with great success, much like you can take Blight comps through the Foetor just fine.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3081668533

The above is pretty old now, but it still applies after all the changes, with well-greased teams easily capable of covering for a slightly weaker link. You can stick to your Arsonist guns (with or without +res consumables for extra pep), invest in a less dot-based build, or if lucky, swap out a hero for a Bounty Hunter (if available), but personally, I only ever play Arsonist and always go to the Sprawl for burn-trinkets regardless.

If you think it's that big of a deal, then your problem goes much, much deeper than "X hero doesn't suit Y scenario", as that's a given in both games and something the player is expected to plan for (or at least account for at bare minimum).

Why pick Leper then, if you prepare for shambler who will shuffle them?

Leper is one of the most self-sustained heroes in the game. He can spam self-root as a DPS if desired, AoE or meat-shield clappers, and reset himself throughout the region without help. There's no shortage of heroes capable of putting him back into position or helping in other ways (eg. Crusader target root, Jester self-move or team-move skills, other mobile heroes, etc).

Granted, Leper is not optimal for a Shambler, just like Joe and Jane aren't the best at fighting Jim, but you aren't dissuaded from taking one just because shamblers exist. Later on, you may even acquire passive answers, such as the Waking Dream, and even if all that isn't enough, he is merely one out of four eggs in the Paper-Rock-Scissors basket.

The rest has already been addressed earlier.

Once again, these are valid points all around. Deep knowledge of the game and strategy can get you far. But that still doesn't excuse such a harsh punishment for encountering the shambler's altar. Just make an option to avoid the fight free, or heck - 1 stress to the party, something that isn't this awful awful trait.

[Aria Kawa]

In terms of choices and management, the balance is all over the place and there are way too many moments when you fell like you are stripped of agency. I saw that giant wall of text above, and all of that is moot when the games pushes literal BS down your throat, like when I had a collector + TWO shamblers in a row without being offered the option to run from any of the fights.

Another shining example was one failed run when all of my heroes with 0 stress and max health refused to fight JUST AFTER LEAVING THE INN saying some crap about "no light left" because this fricking game decided to rubberband my positive relationships. This happened in three nodes in a row. In the fourth node I got ambushed, my leper got instakilled from full health to death.

Then a magical change happened. In the next nodes I wasn't offered the option to run. Oh no, like dudes, dudes our Leper is DEAD, looks LIKE THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO FIGHT!!!
I can deal with typical RNG BS and I like this, but I can't deal with a game wasting 3 hours to pound my ass with nonsense.

This game would vastly improve if you could be offered more options, interactivity and agency and there's a ton of things that could be done to make the game slightly more fair and the runs less repetitive, but the devs unfortunately are very stiff in their idea of what makes this game challenging,

[Shiku]

Originally posted by Aria Kawa:

In terms of choices and management, the balance is all over the place and there are way too many moments when you fell like you are stripped of agency. I saw that giant wall of text above, and all of that is moot when the games pushes literal BS down your throat, like when I had a collector + TWO shamblers in a row without being offered the option to run from any of the fights.

Another shining example was one failed run when all of my heroes with 0 stress and max health refused to fight JUST AFTER LEAVING THE INN saying some crap about "no light left" because this fricking game decided to rubberband my positive relationships. This happened in three nodes in a row. In the fourth node I got ambushed, my leper got instakilled from full health to death.

Then a magical change happened. In the next nodes I wasn't offered the option to run. Oh no, like dudes, dudes our Leper is DEAD, looks LIKE THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO FIGHT!!!
I can deal with typical RNG BS and I like this, but I can't deal with a game wasting 3 hours to pound my ass with nonsense.

This game would vastly improve if you could be offered more options, interactivity and agency and there's a ton of things that could be done to make the game slightly more fair and the runs less repetitive, but the devs unfortunately are very stiff in their idea of what makes this game challenging,

It would be a wonder if they included current relationship information when you hover your mouse over the choices. Kinda getting tired of clicking 'R' and scrolling through all the characters.
In an ideal world they would include 'pseudo-random distribution' for the nodes. You still get the same averages but your standard deviation is lower and your chances of seeing multiple good/bad outcomes in a row are lower as well. MOBAs have been doing for some time to avoid getting crit-rolled and losing the match as a result.

[[AMB]Messer]

Originally posted by Aria Kawa:

In terms of choices and management, the balance is all over the place and there are way too many moments when you fell like you are stripped of agency. I saw that giant wall of text above, and all of that is moot when the games pushes literal BS down your throat, like when I had a collector + TWO shamblers in a row without being offered the option to run from any of the fights.

Another shining example was one failed run when all of my heroes with 0 stress and max health refused to fight JUST AFTER LEAVING THE INN saying some crap about "no light left" because this fricking game decided to rubberband my positive relationships. This happened in three nodes in a row. In the fourth node I got ambushed, my leper got instakilled from full health to death.

Then a magical change happened. In the next nodes I wasn't offered the option to run. Oh no, like dudes, dudes our Leper is DEAD, looks LIKE THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO FIGHT!!!
I can deal with typical RNG BS and I like this, but I can't deal with a game wasting 3 hours to pound my ass with nonsense.

This game would vastly improve if you could be offered more options, interactivity and agency and there's a ton of things that could be done to make the game slightly more fair and the runs less repetitive, but the devs unfortunately are very stiff in their idea of what makes this game challenging,

1 - indeed, forced into bad rng in this game feels a lot more forced. You CAN technically excape the battle. By abandoning the run, which at this rate you very much can let everyone die. This was not an issue in DD1, where you could stress the hell out of heroes for running from fight and losing loot and even more stress by abandoning the mission, but you DON'T lose heroes if you do. In DD2 tho, it's either run while in inn or get screwed.

2 - that's another annoying issue. Doesn't make sense especially if your heroes are actually friends but STILL get pissy when one decides to chose opposing choice. Escpecially, as you mentioned, when party is healthy, sane, light and max + many buffs on top. Nah, not feelight like a fight, gonna grump about it.

3 - you're telling me about it... just a recent run, dumb rng left me with 2 heroes, but I was close to an in, so I thought I'll make it and at least get all the candles back and at most - regroup and continue. But before before-inn cultists fight, I HAD to move by the creature den. With 2 heroes. Guess what? Both chose it's a good idea to fight. Needless to say none has reached the inn.

4 - I feel the issue is not with dev's perception of difficulty, but rather the issues being with fundamental mechanics that are very hard to fix and balance out without drastically changing the game mechanics. Same was kinda done with enemies death's door resist, which was changed into a token system. It worked in the end, so perhaps more fixes of core issues will come?