Genuine question: Why was the key mechanic of "know when to say no to combat" removed?

[Sliscus]

A *huge* part of DD 1 was "do I press my luck and try to get more stuff, or do I call it here?" and DD2 doesn't really have that, when I wiped my party and lost a bunch of trinkets gold and whatnot, very rarely did I feel like it was unavoidable, it was usually a result if my hubris.

I know the answer is going to be "that was DD1 this is DD2" and yeah I get that "different game is different" but this is a lot of different all at once in a direct sequel, so I really gotta ask: Is this just me? am I so awful at this game that I'm just doing everything wrong ?

[pitiflauticus]

Choosing the path on the map probably replaced that.

If you feel like pushing your luck, choose a harder path. If you don't, choose an easier (non combat) path or at least one with more options, just in case one of those combats go wrong.

However, in most cases, most combats are actually the "easy" nodes, except for special encounters like the chirurgeon or the lair bosses.

[Sliscus]

Yeah I get that but "press your luck" was the entire gameplay loop and now it's "pick a path until you die"

[Sliscus]

Tried picking this up again after early access hoping things would be reworked....

and no, they were not.

Relationships are a great idea - but putting in a non combat mechanic that makes players want to abandon their run between dungeons is poor execution.

Streamlining the upgrades is a good idea - but removing a good chunk of player choice and town management ( which is what a lot of people liked in the first game) is poor execution.

Combos feel good and having more classes have synergy baked in is a good idea - the fact that there are 43 different buffs/debuffs and there is a dedicated button for pulling up the buff / debuff reference sheet is poor execution.

Wanting to eliminate farming runs where you cheese the treasure system is a good idea - streamlining the dungeon to "choose a path" style exploration over map exploration, is bad execution. Making it so you can't retreat from combat or have any benefit to abandoning a run before an inn is also bad execution. AS a player it makes me feel like I'm just limping along waiting for someone to finish me off, not a great feeling.

Hopefully they learn from this and DD3 has the best of both games.

[The Face]

Also you can actively choose not to fight combined with picking your path sometimes, so . . . no

[Sliscus]

Originally posted by The Face:

Also you can actively choose not to fight combined with picking your path sometimes, so . . . no

"Sometimes"

I'd sa maybe 1 in 5 combats has the option to opt out, with negative consequences.

again, in DD1 scouting and avoiding unnecessary combat were *key core mechanics*

Only doing it sometimes and making it so you are always punished is a bad game mechanic.

[The Face]

And running from a fight usually snowballed badly.

Scouting and going different paths is your road choices here. And "skipping combat you were already in was a bad idea in 1, since there was massive stress to run from the fight and then back away

[Shiku]

Fights are very rewarding in DD2. If you pick every fight, do every dungeon in every region you arrive absolutely stacked at the mountain. The rewards create a positive loop where the more you fight, the stronger your team gets and the easier future fights become. I don't see a reason why'd even want to skip a fight in DD2.

[Sliscus]

Originally posted by The Face:

And running from a fight usually snowballed badly.

Scouting and going different paths is your road choices here. And "skipping combat you were already in was a bad idea in 1, since there was massive stress to run from the fight and then back away

not if you were adequately prepared.

[Sliscus]

Originally posted by Iname:

Fights are very rewarding in DD2. If you pick every fight, do every dungeon in every region you arrive absolutely stacked at the mountain. The rewards create a positive loop where the more you fight, the stronger your team gets and the easier future fights become. I don't see a reason why'd even want to skip a fight in DD2.

because my whole party is almost at max stress, low health, and I'm low on combat items.

[Black Hammer]

Originally posted by Sliscus:

Originally posted by Iname:

Fights are very rewarding in DD2. If you pick every fight, do every dungeon in every region you arrive absolutely stacked at the mountain. The rewards create a positive loop where the more you fight, the stronger your team gets and the easier future fights become. I don't see a reason why'd even want to skip a fight in DD2.

because my whole party is almost at max stress, low health, and I'm low on combat items.

Doesn't matter; there's not really any recovery or bouncing back in DD2. You go hard until you wipe or win. There is no risk vs reward for the most part.

[Sliscus]

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

Originally posted by Sliscus:

because my whole party is almost at max stress, low health, and I'm low on combat items.

Doesn't matter; there's not really any recovery or bouncing back in DD2. You go hard until you wipe or win. There is no risk vs reward for the most part.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not disputing that this is how DD2 works.

There are many reasons to *want* to skip a fight.

But you can't. As you just put it, in DD2 you wipe or win, and that takes away player agency and it's a bad design choice for a sequel to a game that had a lot of player agency.

[Sliscus]

This is not "AM I missing something?" this is "why was this design philosophy chosen for this game?"

[Flyin' High]

I agree that not being able to retreat really hurts DD2 imo
it, tied with DD2 runs being around 3-5 hours long make it feel like a slog after a few times playing because, not only is everything basically the same each time, but your run can effectively end if you for example go to a shambler's altar, and the everyone wants to fight it but you aren't prepared, it's not so bad in darkest dungeon 1 because you ALWAYS have that choice, instead of just hoping someone in your party wants to leave or fight, you can actually choose it
you can sometimes avoid it but it's pretty common for them to be unscouted or be the only path you can take in the region
the whole heroes having their own opinion about things is a really cool mechanic but it makes things like assistance encounters usually detriment because it affects relationships so much gradually throughout the run, and it robs the player of a lot of decision making which ends up making a lot of situations feel unwinnable, even when they are

[The Face]

Originally posted by Sliscus:

This is not "AM I missing something?" this is "why was this design philosophy chosen for this game?"

But you are missing something. Namely that warning at the launch of the game

[Knusperkeks02]

Running away is why you fail.

Let's say on your way to the mountain, you fight 25 battles. 10 of them are road battles.

In case you're wondering how I ended up with these numbers: They're from my act 5 Bastards's Beacon run:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_SohBcwOIE&list=PLLjTP0NLrKShNVsRGHkWZaZzCLViu8uuL&index=52

Every battle you fight gives you an opportunity to fix HP, Stress, Flame, Relationships.

Every round of battle is an opportunity to use four actions to make a difference in the run.

You can use (for example) completely worthless combat items like the Invigorating Intoxicant to apply a buff to a party member to help build relationships.

Every time an enemy hurts one of your party members and the character that immediately follows in the turn order has the ability to attack the aggressor, consider punishing the aggressor to help build relationships.

Assistance Encounters exist as a way to make the player suffer, they're occasionally useful, but always worse than even the second worst encounter type.

Anyway, there will be 25 fights, and the difficulty increases roughly linearly from the first to the last.

Even with the Beacon, champions will never appear in early regions - that's the effect of the Stygian Blaze, but the Stygian Blaze doesn't force Ordainment on every enemy, which makes the Bastard's Beacon the most difficult Infernal Flame, because its the one that makes it the most difficult to get your snowball rolling.

There may be some difficulty spikes caused primarily by boss encounters (Lair, Shambler Altar, etc.)

However, if you build your team correctly, you'll be able to overcome these challenges.

Your reward will be bountiful: Precious Mastery, trinkets, combat items, and if you don't happen to find too many useful things, use relics and baubles to purchase what you lack.

If you can do that, your party will be at their peak strength always, you'll be the one that dictates the tides of battle, every fight will run on your terms from beginning to end.

Things will indubitably go wrong, but if you foresee the outcome, you can work to play around it to a certain degree.

The better you are at the game, the more it will appear to onlookers as if the entire run is scripted and there was never any danger to be found to begin with. Not because danger isn't perilous, but danger that can't hurt you because you prepared for it ceases to be danger.

Your party's HP and stress bars are a resource that you should aim to maintain as best as possible, not let the enemies whittle down your adventurers until they're almost dead and only then begin to think: "hmm, maybe I should do something".

In DD2, problems start out as innocuous looking details.

If you accumulate too many problems whose solution demands resources, the amount of resources required will steadily increase, the price you must pay to resolve a problem will grow over time, the problem will exacerbate by itself, so it's imperative to identify the root of problems and purge any potential cause of future dismay as soon as possible.

This includes even things like harmless negative quirks which may not be a demerit by themselves, but surely will turn out to be a problem later on once you are afflicted by negative quirks which represent visible and direct harm to your party.

To counteract this, the solution I found is this: when the opportunity arises, visit a hospital to get rid of negative quirks.

Hoard your Wild Tea for when you're at an Inn and get a negative quirk that is detrimental.

All of this takes many relics, I hope you're killing the Lair in every region to help accrue enough funds.

Most heals suck in this game, the superior playstyle involves tokens to avoid or mitigate damage preemptively instead of reactively healing up. You will always lose tempo from limping behind on your recovery if the amount you recover is less than the amount the enemy is able to dish out.

At any rate, there is nobody on my skill level (that uploads videos) that I could point you towards, so you'll have to take my word for it that you'll want to fight as much as possible, get stronger as quickly as possible, so you can keep being the one that crushes your enemies, instead of being the one who gets crushed.

There are only two options: Gather your strength while the enemies are weak or perish.

The Mountain is inevitable and does not care how you got to it, it will ask questions, and if you didn't take the opportunity to figure out the answers to those questions on your way to the mountain, you will fail.

It's possible to fail an expedition right from the start, just because you didn't pick the right tools for the job, namely the wrong heroes.