is it me or new girl is insanly bad char?

[sergantuss]

like holly ♥♥♥♥.
you need to waste like 2-3 turnes only to prepare her for some good dmg.
and then just pret for rng cuz sometimes mobs just dont wana atack her.

any guides?
cuz legit i feel like she is a waste of time for this game(or you legit need to use her only like support

[Guzu]

Origineel geplaatst door Ibbie:

Origineel geplaatst door sergantuss:

i know all meta and *god* comp
my point is that using her as full potential chat is just so heavy rng(since mobs can just ♥♥♥♥ up your plan with one atack).

Sir
Flèche is 7-10 damage. +30% damage and +5% crit if in Attack stance.
Just spam Flèche if you want
Flèche Flèche Flèche Flèche Flèche
No need for 3-4 prep turns

Or have fun prepping stuff and using other skills but if a monster messes up your plans? just Flèche.

That's just a way worse version of Lunge. Less damage at base, requires 1 turn of set-up to be on equal terms. And if that wasn't bad enough it removes all your dodge if in the wrong stance. Who thought that's a good skill design? GR Lunge is easier and more potent while not having any of the convoluted requirements.

[LordMondayIX]

Origineel geplaatst door Shalai:

That's just a way worse version of Lunge.

It isn't though? The crit is overall a bit lower but with the offensive stance bonus the base damage is higher. The ability is also far more spammable in comparison to Lunge, since you can use it from position 2 rather than needing to be in the backline; any party member that can move forwards 1 while attacking or lock themselves in place can enable you to just keep throwing it out over and over.

Getting into offensive stance also isn't a hassle. Preparation or Touche+ are perfectly fine for getting into offensive stance, both providing a decent damage potential on their own. This is one of the dumber, but still overall effective, ways to use Duelist.

[Raki]

One quite big advantage of Fleche is that it works on Rank2. So you can dance with e.g. a Man-at-Arms or a Hellion in R1 and R2 perfectly fine, without having to involve the backline.

However, I don't know how much meaning there is in comparing individual skills like that, especially for the Duelist. Her entire kit is designed for each skill to interact with the others.

Anyway, if you prefer Grave Robber's playstyle, I also think you don't have to force yourself to play Duelist. If you value a a front-loaded Turn 1, not much can compete with a Nightsworn with Pirouette and Lunge.

[RopeDrink]

Origineel geplaatst door Shalai:

That's just a way worse version of Lunge. Less damage at base, requires 1 turn of set-up to be on equal terms. If you want Lunge play style GR is better.

Lunge: 4-8 + 6-11
Fleche: 6-8 + 7-10

The 5-11 + 7-13 baseline Lunge is exclusive to Nightsworn, whereas Fleche applies regardless, lacking only 1-3 damage (when used without the +30% damage buff).

Lunge cannot be played from R2.
Lunge does not gain +30% damage on repeat/stance.
Lunge has a broader disparity between low/high baseline (4-6 pts) compared to Fleche (2-3). Overall, the damage is pretty even (outside of variable crits).

Whether one is 'better' is heavily dependent on your setup. Lunge, assuming you value crit-builds and dodge-bypass as a Nightsworn-only -- or Flech, which can do similar via any path and from more positions.

[The Darkest DeDeDank]

While I agree she isn't one of the better characters like Flag, MaA, HWM, Jester, and PD. I do find her a lot more fun than those characters. Those characters tend to have a very simple yet powerful rotation of moves that you use 90% of the time, such as:

Take Aim -> attack 1 attack 2
More more! -> other move -> More more!
Retribution -> other move -> Retribution
Encore -> Solo -> Finale
Plague Grenade twice and then do whatever

Meanwhile when playing Duelist you need to be aware of what stance you're in, what skills each stance allows you to use, how to get into your desired stance, and what secondary effects each stance provides for each path and skill. This encourages you to think ahead in ways other characters simply don't. When pulled off well it feels a lot more rewarding than the more brain off strategys I mentioned.

[nerdcommando.gamestudios]

So much special snowflakes ITT. Duelist sucks, her skills are subpar and, outside of symbol and text overload that destroys all the reading comprehension, her skills aren't really interesting.

Let's compare her Fleche (probably her best skill atm) to Nightsworn's Lunge. Yes, Nightsworn because, if you're using Fleche heavily, you're not using any Duelist path - you're using Instructice only as other's stances have zero synergy wtih Fleche.

Lunge* does 12.85 damage per action. That's on the average, crit accounted. Has the potential to do pretty much double that by ignoring protection/dodge token if GR is in stealth.

Fleche* does 9.47 dpa without aggressive stance, 12.73 with it. She also gets 1 more step out of it (important for crocodilian), stance (some minor, hard to predict healing) and more convenient positioning.

To a lesser mind this might look like a tie or even duelist's advantage, but where the newcomer falls apart is actually interacting with the game.


Nightsworn has the whole stealth - these tokens make her mega-strong and it's all up to you how to build them. You can go with Alembic & Retort + Bottle Case and print Shimmering Powder - won't be enough for each battle, but enough for the bossfights. You can go with the baby shambler and hunt for the Silent Treatment which is Nightsworn's grail moment - Duelist doesn't have a grail moment, btw. Or mb the grail moment is Treatment + Pig Sticker combo? You can even do something weird like Despairing Flame + Covert Cloak. Stacking "My Time in the Desert" for the final fight is also fine. You have plays.

Duelist, on the other hand, is so much "original character, do not steal" that nothing else in the game interacts with her stances. And it gets even worse if you actually understand the math of the game.

10% of crit for the Lunge* results in +9.5% damage bonus (they've sorta screwed when they did a slight buff - iirc, it was 6-13, they made it 7-13; should've made 6-14).

10% of crit for Fleche* results in +7.6% damage bonus. The same goes for her other skills too - crits have subpar value for any of them.

Likewise, Nightsworn under Strength token does 19.27 damage with Lunge*. But Duelist with Fleche* under the same token does only 17.62. That's because it already has that innate +30% dmg and it's not multiplicative.

So, the more bonuses does your party get, the more will the gap between Duelist and GR (and any other decent character) deepen. Every synergy in the game is simply weaker for her and she doesn't have anything unique on her own.

[Raki]

Origineel geplaatst door nerdcommando.gamestudios:

Likewise, Nightsworn under Strength token does 19.27 damage with Lunge*. But Duelist with Fleche* under the same token does only 17.62. That's because it already has that innate +30% dmg and it's not multiplicative.

Hm, that is a valid point. But on the other hand, I guess that also mean that the move is more resilient against Weakness tokens, right?

From a bigger perspective, I'm not sure what this number-crunching is supposed to prove. Let's say Fleche was slightly buffed to have exactly and not almost the same damage as Lunge. Would that make you revert your verdict from "Duelist sucks" to "Duelist owns"?

To me it seems your analysis is ex-post. You do not like the character (which is okay), so you come up with some random math to rationalize it.

[nerdcommando.gamestudios]

Origineel geplaatst door Raki124:

To me it seems your analysis is ex-post. You do not like the character (which is okay), so you come up with some random math to rationalize it.

Pro-tip: don't try to do telepathy. You suck at it.

I don't have any bias against duelist. It's just that she has neither power nor interesting, unique skills. No malediction or anamnesis, no backdraft, no good interaction with pets and items - Berserker of Soloist may be sucky paths but at least they're godly in the whole Owlet / Spiked Ball crafting / Leviathan trophy combo. She has Fleche and riposte - we've already had riposte parties, we've already had crocodilian parties.

The closest thing that comes to being unique with her is Instructice again but that's hindered by stance prerequisite and, overall, that whole approach just doesn't play well. Staying at high (but not meltdown) stress is just not supported enough at this point. It looks especially bad in contrast to Black Reliquary's recent additions of Thrall & Polymath, both of which excel at psycho fighting.

[Guzu]

Was about to drop my numbers but someone was faster. The numbers are correct and you absolutely have to include the crit rates to get average values to make a proper comparison.

Origineel geplaatst door Raki124:

Hm, that is a valid point. But on the other hand, I guess that also mean that the move is more resilient against Weakness tokens, right?

No. If x1 was higher than x2 it means after dividing the values by half, x1 is still higher than x2.

Origineel geplaatst door Raki124:

To me it seems your analysis is ex-post. You do not like the character (which is okay), so you come up with some random math to rationalize it.

You can't do ex-post math arguments. The numbers don't change, they are what they are and help you make a quantitative assessment. They're also not random. Actually, they are quite definitive. Random would be when your assessment is solely based on a feeling how good something is.

Origineel geplaatst door Raki124:

From a bigger perspective, I'm not sure what this number-crunching is supposed to prove. Let's say Fleche was slightly buffed to have exactly and not almost the same damage as Lunge. Would that make you revert your verdict from "Duelist sucks" to "Duelist owns"?

It proves that numerically speaking, she starts with lower damage, requires set-up and scales worse (with +% dmg, with crit, with trinkets and with quirks). Well, GR isn't the top of the bracket so it would change from sucks to mediocre.

[Raki]

Origineel geplaatst door Shalai:

No. If x1 was higher than x2 it means after dividing the values by half, x1 is still higher than x2.

As Nerdcommando proved above, the percentages are additive, not multiplicative. Meaning a weakened Fleshe (with Stance) does 80% base dmg (100 + 30 - 50), while weakened Lunge does 50% base dmg.

Lunge: (7 - 13) * 0.5 = 3.5 - 6.5
Fleshe: (7 - 10) * 0.8 = 5.6 - 8

Origineel geplaatst door nerdcommando.gamestudios:

I don't have any bias against duelist. It's just that she has neither power nor interesting, unique skills. No malediction or anamnesis, ...

You've pretty much proved my point - you don't find her interesting. Also, naming Malediction as interesting move - really? I'm hard pressed finding a more useless move on OCC, or any character really. (Or have they made the debuff to last rounds by now, not turns?)

If we're talking interesting moves, Duelist's "Again" is completely unique. Resetting a Seraph's Consecrations and Heals is infinitely more useful than Malediction.

[nerdcommando.gamestudios]

Origineel geplaatst door Raki124:

You've pretty much proved my point - you don't find her interesting. Also, naming Malediction as interesting move - really? I'm hard pressed finding a more useless move on OCC, or any character really. (Or have they made the debuff to last rounds by now, not turns?)

If we're talking interesting moves, Duelist's "Again" is completely unique. Resetting a Seraph's Consecrations and Heals is infinitely more useful than Malediction.

Stop trying to speak for me. You presuming things doesn't mean anything, it's just rude.

Malediction is an interesting move because yes, it has been buffed, and even without buffs you could've assembled a whole squad around it - it may not do much on the grind but it has very good value vs bosses. Even with short duration it was all about using it in a proper boss encounter, figuring out the proper timing for it and doing the maximum amount of hits in minimal time. It was a great way to burst down either Resentment or Obsession.

Again, on the other hand, is not completely unique - it's just Ethereal Dust as ability. A really scrappy combat item that is only ever usable on the Vestal and even there only in certain boss fights. I've specifically tested this interaction and it's not needed - most combats just don't last long enough for you to cast your consecrations two times. And for the endbosses you'd rather have Ethereal Dust - it's just more convenient that way. And even for the mega-long fifth boss fight 2x ethereal dusts were enough for me (not to mention that, for some reason, again has the same "2x per combat" limitation).

[The Darkest DeDeDank]

Does it matter if a character can theoretically do better or worse than another character with the right path, right trinket, right pet, right trophy or whatever else you can min max with them? Duelist gets me to the mountain just fine and I have fun doing it with her. She's not a character like Leper or Vestal who tend to just underwhelm even at their best.

[RopeDrink]

Again, Fleche has comparable baselines (regardless of path) and can be used from 3/4 positions, whereas the bulk of Lunge sentiment hinges on Nightsworn and/or combat items/trinkets, all to cement a more restricted drop in the sea.

As an Antagoniste enjoyer, I typically decide between refreshing riposte or swapping stance (Feint), forward burst (Fleche), backward dodge or anti-riposte (Disengage), spamming Weak/Vuln (Touche), or stunning/displacing targets OOP to wreck their next move (The Boot) -- a simple but effective playstyle that can be enjoyed from 3/4 positions on the board, whereas a Nightsworn GR is incentivized solely by Lunge and Pirouette.

As a GR lover myself, min-maxing the damage on Lunge has little bearing on the grand scheme of things, and due to preferring other paths instead of Nightsworn, there are far fewer reasons for me to consider Lunge -- whereas any version of DUE may comfortably consider Fleche @ no detriment.

People can discuss the damage disparity all day long, but it won't stop Fleche from being a perfectly good button -- one of many she has -- and whether someone finds X skill, Y path, or Z hero 'interesting' is subjective flim-flam.

[Guzu]

Origineel geplaatst door RopeDrink:

...whereas any version of DUE may comfortably consider Fleche @ no detriment.

People can discuss the damage disparity all day long, but it won't stop Fleche from being a perfectly good button -- one of many she has -- and whether someone finds X skill, Y path, or Z hero 'interesting' is subjective flim-flam.

It gives a hint on the overall strength of a hero when people say that a move is perfectly viably on character A wheres a similar or better move on character B is not viable. Fleche is obviously a worse move than Lunge. And Lunge wasn't a particular great to move to use on GR unless you had a specific set-up. It kinda tells that every other move on DUE is below average,

We had a similar situation with Vestal and even experienced people fell for that. Many people praised Ministration and that it'd be a good move to run and even master. In reality, Ministration sucked compared to other dot clears. Yet, it was considered good on Vestal because Vestal's other skills are generally so weak that it seems good.

[calderon]

Duelist and Vestal are definitely the two most complicated characters.