No trophy >> Loss?

[EvilAliv3]

I havent tried but, does reaching the mountain with no trophy, therefore, not been able to go in count as a loss (characters death mainly)???

[The Face]

A trophy is needed to access the mountain zone starting on act 2 and beyond. WIthout one on those acts you can only finish the run at the inn

[Blockhead]

If you're at the final Inn without a Trophy, the only option it gives you is to End Expedition, which counts as a loss; which will remove any Memories from Heroes etc.

[All For Her Smile]

Originally posted by Blockhead:

If you're at the final Inn without a Trophy, the only option it gives you is to End Expedition, which counts as a loss; which will remove any Memories from Heroes etc.

Very poor design choice. I still don't understand the reason it is that way.

[The Face]

Originally posted by Sleepy:

Originally posted by Blockhead:

If you're at the final Inn without a Trophy, the only option it gives you is to End Expedition, which counts as a loss; which will remove any Memories from Heroes etc.

Very poor design choice. I still don't understand the reason it is that way.

Because they told you after the first tutorial that after act 1 you need a trophy.

[StimJunky]

Originally posted by The Face:

Originally posted by Sleepy:

Very poor design choice. I still don't understand the reason it is that way.

Because they told you after the first tutorial that after act 1 you need a trophy.

"Because they told you" does not address why the poor design choice was made to include this prerequisite. There isn't even an in-game lore explanation for it. It's just one of the many janky decisions made.

"this game is about making the best of a bad situation....so we're arbitrarily stacked the deck against you with bad decisions just cause. Enjoy!"

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by StimJunky:

Originally posted by The Face:

Because they told you after the first tutorial that after act 1 you need a trophy.

"Because they told you" does not address why the poor design choice was made to include this prerequisite. There isn't even an in-game lore explanation for it. It's just one of the many janky decisions made.

"this game is about making the best of a bad situation....so we're arbitrarily stacked the deck against you with bad decisions just cause. Enjoy!"

It seems like people just didn’t fight the bosses is why it was implemented as a bandaid. Idk to be honest it makes sense to me. In general I have no idea how you would scale enough to beat the chapter boss or even the exemplar if you didnt get the massive rewards taking out lairs give you.

[Radene]

Originally posted by StimJunky:

Originally posted by The Face:

Because they told you after the first tutorial that after act 1 you need a trophy.

"Because they told you" does not address why the poor design choice was made to include this prerequisite. There isn't even an in-game lore explanation for it. It's just one of the many janky decisions made.

"this game is about making the best of a bad situation....so we're arbitrarily stacked the deck against you with bad decisions just cause. Enjoy!"

I think it might be a bit of a setup-check. If you can't clear at least one Lair (confidently, and not just limp out of it half-dead) on the way there, you'd have little chance against the Mountain bosses. Especially without the loot you get for clearing the Lairs.

[MarcoPants]

Originally posted by Radene:

Originally posted by StimJunky:

"Because they told you" does not address why the poor design choice was made to include this prerequisite. There isn't even an in-game lore explanation for it. It's just one of the many janky decisions made.

"this game is about making the best of a bad situation....so we're arbitrarily stacked the deck against you with bad decisions just cause. Enjoy!"

I think it might be a bit of a setup-check. If you can't clear at least one Lair (confidently, and not just limp out of it half-dead) on the way there, you'd have little chance against the Mountain bosses. Especially without the loot you get for clearing the Lairs.

^^

fighting the lair bosses is a massive boon. Guaranteed mastery, heaps of relics and baubles, additional light, cleansing multiple Loathing, and (usually) incredibly potent trinkets. Sometimes there will be a combat or inn item in there. There are some boss trophy effects that are absolutely mental as well like "The Unabridged Addition" giving you full scouting of every region

[All For Her Smile]

Originally posted by The Face:

Originally posted by Sleepy:

Very poor design choice. I still don't understand the reason it is that way.

Because they told you after the first tutorial that after act 1 you need a trophy.

That's not what I meant and now I remember the reason I had blocked you, it was because your annoying replies in these forums almost never addressed the core of the message to which you were supposedly responding.

At any rate, I never meant that it was a poor design choice to need a trophy in order to fight the boss, I know that you do. I meant that it was a poor design choice to lose your heroes and their memories if they don't fight a boss. Because even if you do fight a boss, chances are you will die most of the time, due to the extremely difficult nature of the game, so either way you will lose your heroes, let's say, 90% of the time, due to not fighting a boss or by dying to it. So your only chance of keeping your original heroes is to fight through all 5 Acts and defeating all the bosses without a single loss. In a game that is designed to force deaths on you. I don't know who likes that, I don't know who thought that was a good idea and, again, I don't understand why that particular thing was considered a good design choice by the developers.

It would be a much better choice if you could, in a sense, protect your heroes by ending expeditions at inns when things start falling apart for your party and then giving them another chance by retrying with them in a new expedition, with the downside of getting less rewards if you quit prematurely. Meanwhile characters can still die easily on the way to the inn so due to the fact that it's never guaranteed that your whole party will make it through a region, it won't be considered a cheap and easy way out. And even if it does seem that way to you, you will still have the option of not doing that and instead fight the boss for a gamble about keeping/losing your heroes. Whereas when I want to keep at least one certain hero by stopping at an inn, while he or she is still alive and well, I am not given that choice. That's what I call poor design.

[bort]

Originally posted by Sleepy:

Originally posted by The Face:

Because they told you after the first tutorial that after act 1 you need a trophy.

That's not what I meant and now I remember the reason I had blocked you, it was because your annoying replies in these forums almost never addressed the core of the message to which you were supposedly responding.

At any rate, I never meant that it was a poor design choice to need a trophy in order to fight the boss, I know that you do. I meant that it was a poor design choice to lose your heroes and their memories if they don't fight a boss. Because even if you do fight a boss, chances are you will die most of the time, due to the extremely difficult nature of the game, so either way you will lose your heroes, let's say, 90% of the time, due to not fighting a boss or by dying to it. So your only chance of keeping your original heroes is to fight through all 5 Acts and defeating all the bosses without a single loss. In a game that is designed to force deaths on you. I don't know who likes that, I don't know who thought that was a good idea and, again, I don't understand why that particular thing was considered a good design choice by the developers.

It would be a much better choice if you could, in a sense, protect your heroes by ending expeditions at inns when things start falling apart for your party and then giving them another chance by retrying with them in a new expedition, with the downside of getting less rewards if you quit prematurely. Meanwhile characters can still die easily on the way to the inn so due to the fact that it's never guaranteed that your whole party will make it through a region, it won't be considered a cheap and easy way out. And even if it does seem that way to you, you will still have the option of not doing that and instead fight the boss for a gamble about keeping/losing your heroes. Whereas when I want to keep at least one certain hero by stopping at an inn, while he or she is still alive and well, I am not given that choice. That's what I call poor design.

The approach is that memories are the last thing you get because the game is designed so that you can beat any fight once you've unlocked everything else, So retreating at inns is just a mechanic to get to that point without having to worry about preserving your heroes

[StimJunky]

Originally posted by Radene:

Originally posted by StimJunky:

"Because they told you" does not address why the poor design choice was made to include this prerequisite. There isn't even an in-game lore explanation for it. It's just one of the many janky decisions made.

"this game is about making the best of a bad situation....so we're arbitrarily stacked the deck against you with bad decisions just cause. Enjoy!"

I think it might be a bit of a setup-check. If you can't clear at least one Lair (confidently, and not just limp out of it half-dead) on the way there, you'd have little chance against the Mountain bosses. Especially without the loot you get for clearing the Lairs.

You're conflating lairs with the biome boss. Lairs are two standard encounters back to back. Bosses are three encounters, of which the third being the boss with a gimmick that if you haven't built for you'll likely fail.

[DeathRow]

Originally posted by StimJunky:

Originally posted by Radene:

I think it might be a bit of a setup-check. If you can't clear at least one Lair (confidently, and not just limp out of it half-dead) on the way there, you'd have little chance against the Mountain bosses. Especially without the loot you get for clearing the Lairs.

You're conflating lairs with the biome boss. Lairs are two standard encounters back to back. Bosses are three encounters, of which the third being the boss with a gimmick that if you haven't built for you'll likely fail.

u mean a creature den?

[Radene]

Originally posted by StimJunky:

Originally posted by Radene:

I think it might be a bit of a setup-check. If you can't clear at least one Lair (confidently, and not just limp out of it half-dead) on the way there, you'd have little chance against the Mountain bosses. Especially without the loot you get for clearing the Lairs.

You're conflating lairs with the biome boss. Lairs are two standard encounters back to back. Bosses are three encounters, of which the third being the boss with a gimmick that if you haven't built for you'll likely fail.

Bosses are in Lairs. The other thing is a Creature Den.

[StimJunky]

Originally posted by Radene:

Originally posted by StimJunky:

You're conflating lairs with the biome boss. Lairs are two standard encounters back to back. Bosses are three encounters, of which the third being the boss with a gimmick that if you haven't built for you'll likely fail.

Bosses are in Lairs. The other thing is a Creature Den.

I stand corrected them. Thank you.

[Connatic]

Originally posted by Sleepy:

At any rate, I never meant that it was a poor design choice to need a trophy in order to fight the boss, I know that you do. I meant that it was a poor design choice to lose your heroes and their memories if they don't fight a boss....

While it could make logical sense, that your heroes "survived" because they just went home, so they get memories. I think the design choice, is the Timeless Wood is meant to reward you for a "true victory", beating the mountain boss. Simple as that. If you could get memories just from making it to the final in, you could in theory, avoid Lairs entirely, and take the easiest route, just to buff your party with memories for a future run. It's not a poor design at all.

With how dreamlike and abstract the world is in DD2, you can just as easily assume, everyone "dies" at the end of any run, and the memories are just granted to the resurrected hero because of the epic victory.