Possible to be 10+ and still get negative relationship effects? Or relationship effects calculated before reaching the Inn?

[LL Cheese Z]

I had 2 characters at 9/20 relationship status before reaching an inn. I gave them both whiskey and they were then at 11/20. ...However, after I left the inn, they still generated a negative relationship, Resentful or something.

So...is that just how the RNG works? Or does the game have "seeds" (like XCOM) that have a predetermined outcome at certain points that cannot be prevented? And for relationship effects, it's actually before you leave the Inn instead of after? (which wouldn't make sense)

This is the first time I've ever seen someone leave the inn w/ a 10+ relationship and then get a negative effect. I'm pretty sure I've had similar situations before, so I don't think it is seeded results. So even at 11/20, negative relationships can still happen?

[Bishop]

The breakthroughs for points to make difference: 8- for negative, 9-13 for neutral and 14+ for positive. So anything between 9 and 13 will have no effect on their base chance to form relationships.

Generally you should always consider breakpoints. Keep then neutral where possible and push to 14+ otherwise. Wasting whiskey when everything already neutral but can't be progressed into 14+ is kinda pointless. Just keep it for another inn.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by LL Cheese Z:

I had 2 characters at 9/20 relationship status before reaching an inn. I gave them both whiskey and they were then at 11/20. ...However, after I left the inn, they still generated a negative relationship, Resentful or something.

So...is that just how the RNG works? Or does the game have "seeds" (like XCOM) that have a predetermined outcome at certain points that cannot be prevented? And for relationship effects, it's actually before you leave the Inn instead of after? (which wouldn't make sense)

This is the first time I've ever seen someone leave the inn w/ a 10+ relationship and then get a negative effect. I'm pretty sure I've had similar situations before, so I don't think it is seeded results. So even at 11/20, negative relationships can still happen?

I read the wiki about this, if you're in the "neutral" zone you have a 5% chance of developing either a positive or negative relationship. Once you're friendly it's 33% positive relationship with 0% negative.

[Magni]

There's also quirks that modify relationship chances. And some Inns have inherent modifiers to it.

[Agent.0.Fortune]

I just received 3 negative relationships the same character and 3 allies, while having 12, 12, 13; and no negative modifiers. so a 1 in 8,000 chance. Lucky me.

But what really bothers me is how the game removes my agency and forces me to take negative skills, and doesn't allow me to change them. In a game that is focused on decisions and consequences, this mechanic is strangely out of place.

NOTE: just double-checked, it was a hate triangle, 3 characters each 12+, so I ended up with 3 characters with 2 penalty skills apiece that locked those skills in place. So on 3/4 of my team I could only choose 3 skills instead of 5.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by Agent.0.Fortune:

I just received 3 negative relationships the same character and 3 allies, while having 12, 12, 13; and no negative modifiers. so a 1 in 8,000 chance. Lucky me.

But what really bothers me is how the game removes my agency and forces me to take negative skills, and doesn't allow me to change them. In a game that is focused on decisions and consequences, this mechanic is strangely out of place.

NOTE: just double-checked, it was a hate triangle, 3 characters each 12+, so I ended up with 3 characters with 2 penalty skills apiece that locked those skills in place. So on 3/4 of my team I could only choose 3 skills instead of 5.

I have found that negative relationships are not that bad. First off, the skills that are locked tend to be ones that you use (this is according to what the devs have said), but for sake of arguing let's just pretend you unluckily get 2 skills locked on your bar you don't want to use. There is enough slack so pick 3 skills you do want to use and you make do. The vast majority of fights if not all of them don't require you to have more than 3 useful skills. There is slack.

Take this from someone who's beaten Act 5 with the infernal flame while not using any stress healing characters. My relationships weren't good and I melted down a lot but I still made it. The game really is about making the best of a bad situation, it's not about "giving you agency" or respecting your boundaries.

You adapt to it, not the other way around.

There is enough slack in the game to make up for concerns like yours.

[Pixel Peeper]

There are many possible modifiers to Relationship Chance.

Simplest way to deal with it? Just look at the Relationships page of your characters and mouseover the values, they will tell you exactly what your chances of getting a positive and negative Relationship is.

Priority is to decrease odds of negative Relationships.

[Medicles]

I think its weird and unnecessary that relationships can affect skills which arent even chosen for the run.

[Ace490]

The skill switch can really ♥♥♥♥ you over in certain situations (like when you just have to fight the mini boss in that specific section or get one on the final boss) when you get absolutely useless skills or ones that only work in positions this char won't take at all. The problem I have is that this mechanic in itself confers too many drawbacks at once. 1) You get a much weaker skill. 2) If you still use it, you get additional debuffs or stress. 3) It might completely wreak the archetype you are playing or dismantle the synergies you are trying to build up with that char. 4) Your other chars have to work around the weakness conferred on the respective char (like switching positions, applying more healing or stress reduction and so on).
Long story short, it is simply too much for a single mechanic imo. Would be negative enough if the game only picked from the skills selected for that char.

[snuggleform]

No, it's definitely not "too much." As I said there is slack in the game. You do not need to have 5 optimized skills to beat every fight. 3 maybe. For example, plague doctor with noxious blast, grenade, and combat healing is good enough for the vast majority of fights, and the ones for which it isnt enough well you cut one of them to get something else you need more.

[Pixel Peeper]

The problem is, some character builds (or even team builds) can be highly dependent on a particular skill. Then either that character's build becomes wrecked and they're nearly worthless, or you use the skill and suffer terrible consequences (such as adding 1 Stress to another character every single turn). That's outside of other negative consequences, such as the possibility of getting stabbed in the back by your own party members during combat.

I'm not saying the current system should be changed, I think it's fine. But the fact remains that bad relationships are often so freakishly crippling that, most of the time, you're going to need to prioritize the preventing of bad relationships above nearly everything else.

[Stübi Senpai]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

I have found that negative relationships are not that bad. First off, the skills that are locked tend to be ones that you use (this is according to what the devs have said), but for sake of arguing let's just pretend you unluckily get 2 skills locked on your bar you don't want to use. There is enough slack so pick 3 skills you do want to use and you make do. The vast majority of fights if not all of them don't require you to have more than 3 useful skills. There is slack.

Take this from someone who's beaten Act 5 with the infernal flame while not using any stress healing characters. My relationships weren't good and I melted down a lot but I still made it. The game really is about making the best of a bad situation, it's not about "giving you agency" or respecting your boundaries.

You adapt to it, not the other way around.

There is enough slack in the game to make up for concerns like yours.

The skill lock itself might not be the worst part and could be played around. The problem is the negative effect it has on the relationship partner every time it is used. If it's a flat +1 stress and happens to land on a really inconvenient ability (Playing a melee PD and it landing on the melee attack, for example. Or on Lepers chop. etc.) then that is a massive blow to your action economy going forward.

It is also extra harsh on the player in that the negative relationships will actively aim for abilities you are using frequently, to enforce their negative aspect. But positive relationships will choose whatever, so they frequently land on stuff you don't plan on using. The fact thtat there is a tiny chance to roll a negative on neutral also means it will frequently pop as a result of complete RNG, and not any bad decision making on the players part.

Red Hooks love a "throw dice at the wall" approach over actual balancing, hence the game being full of 50/50 and 25/75 rolls for things. But the relationships are particularly aggravating because they can be majorly invasive, and similarly to some of the really bad quirks, encourage just giving up and rerolling versus actually trying to make it work.

[LL Cheese Z]

Wow, okay, thanks for all the replies. I did not realize all of these factors.

The quirks/items that give like -5% or +10% etc positive/negative relationship chance, I thought were just for the 20-point scale being affected lol.

Originally posted by Medicles:

I think its weird and unnecessary that relationships can affect skills which arent even chosen for the run.

I agree. At least if it's positive, you aren't forced to equip the skill.

[Stübi Senpai]

Originally posted by LL Cheese Z:

Wow, okay, thanks for all the replies. I did not realize all of these factors.

The quirks/items that give like -5% or +10% etc positive/negative relationship chance, I thought were just for the 20-point scale being affected lol.

Originally posted by Medicles:

I think its weird and unnecessary that relationships can affect skills which arent even chosen for the run.

I agree. At least if it's positive, you aren't forced to equip the skill.

If it helps, the stuff that gives bonus percentages to relationships is a lot more menaingful than it might appear. I've had a much easier time avoiding the negative relationship stupidity after taking the wolfpup and avoiding any and all quirks that raise the chance for negatives. It tips the scale ever so slightly in your favour, and on longer runs, that usually adds up enough that a bit of whisky and such will handle the rest. As others have said, the golden number is 14, since that eliminates the chance for "lul envious" to happen.