Leper Woes

[HighLanderPony]

Perhaps this is just rant. Maybe I'm on to something. Either way, I'm bored, so here:

A) It's crazy how underwhelming the leper can feel even if he might be relatively more damaging than others:

a) - Takes tons of setup, so yes, you get big hits but you waste turns setting up
b) - E.g. Chop deals 6-16 upgraded. But only 5% crit. Now 6-16 is higher than most hero's damage. Except you sometimes miss so halve that to 3-8 on average. Suddenly, that isn't so peachy. Even if you do hit, 6-16 is a huge range of variance. Even if dealing 6 is more than what a MaA would deal with crush at 4-7 damage, it feels crap because "I could've dealt 13-16 but I only dealt 6"

B) I love the style of the hero but I've been really struggling to get him to work. I tried with marks, without marks, tanky skills, only damage skills, few self buffs, lotsa self buffs, all the damage skills, barely any damage skills, lotsa utility with Purge and Intimidate and Bash and so, or none of it. I don't know whether I'm missing something or he's just bad.

C) Not to mention that stuff like Ruin are just a slower way of buffing your damage than let's say, giving him strength or crit tokens. So that feels like it makes most of his kit obsolete.

D) I've yet to try his paths but shouldn't a hero be at least fairly fun to play even without paths or unlocks?

E) The fact that he can start combat blind AND can gain blind even after an unsuccessful Chop/Hew/Break is pretty annoying as you can go on "blind streaks". Yes, you can mark your target but the Leper consumes the mark on hit and often there are better things to spend the mark on. Not to mention his target access is crap and god forbid he gets moved to rank 3-4.

F) Maybe try out how he'd feel if he was immune to blind thrown out by enemies, at least? I guess that is a sort of upside. You can blank the enemy blinds if you've a mark. No other hero does that, AFAIK, so that's cool.

G) Trinkets can help but they aren't guaranteed.

H) Using Magic the Gathering or other card game terms, he feels more like a Timmy or Johnny card than a Spike card.

I) Again, I'd love to be wrong on this because I like the character a lot but currently he feels like a disjointed mess to me.

(Edit: Added letter coding to my points for easier referencing.)

[The Fool]

I don't think the idea is to attack while blind, it's to roughly alternate using chop/hew/bash and reflection to cure your blindness so you should never go on blind streaks. That's why his skills generally do higher base damage (or at least have a high damage range), to somewhat make up for the fact that you're probably not attacking every turn. Now obviously actual combats are more complicated than that, which is why reflection has other benefits too, why his skills don't always inflict blindness on himself, and why his attacks ignore blindness if the target is marked.

I also think one of the main things that you didn't mention is that he's able to cure his own stress all the way down to 0, especially once you upgrade reflection. This combined with his other skills makes him able to be self-sustaining as a tank in a way no other character really can. Is he going to have a lower average damage than most of your characters? Yeah, probably (at least with the base path). But his ability to take care of himself while tanking hits is higher than pretty much anyone else in the game (except certain versions of flagellant maybe).

Personally I really like him and his playstyle; from what I've seen his benefits and drawbacks mostly balance each other out and he can be a great self-sustaining tank that can also pump out big damage occasionally - or more often with the right team support.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by The Fool:

I don't think the idea is to attack while blind, it's to roughly alternate using chop/hew/bash and reflection to cure your blindness so you should never go on blind streaks. That's why his skills generally do higher base damage (or at least have a high damage range), to somewhat make up for the fact that you're probably not attacking every turn. Now obviously actual combats are more complicated than that, which is why reflection has other benefits too, why his skills don't always inflict blindness on himself, and why his attacks ignore blindness if the target is marked.

I also think one of the main things that you didn't mention is that he's able to cure his own stress all the way down to 0, especially once you upgrade reflection. This combined with his other skills makes him able to be self-sustaining as a tank in a way no other character really can. Is he going to have a lower average damage than most of your characters? Yeah, probably (at least with the base path). But his ability to take care of himself while tanking hits is higher than pretty much anyone else in the game (except certain versions of flagellant maybe).

Personally I really like him and his playstyle; from what I've seen his benefits and drawbacks mostly balance each other out and he can be a great self-sustaining tank that can also pump out big damage occasionally - or more often with the right team support.

My issue is that if I don't want to go the "sit there and soak" route, I don't feel like I have the tools to do that in a satisfying way.

[Divvu]

I agree that he's one of if not the most complex hero to set up, I regularly only play it nonchalantly in groups that can easily generate lots of combos (eg 2+ Jinxed members and a Jester + MaA for the occasional order). And it can be underwhelming to min roll.

6 is still much higher than other heroes mins tho and DD2 Leper is def more consistent than DD1 so doing an average of his damage doesn't work. Additionally, he synergizes like hell with crit and attack tokens. Rly, try it if you never have before. Since iirc we briefly discussed the act 3 boss yesterday, know that the team I'm able to beat it most consistently with consists of: PD, GR, Leper and MaA.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Divvu:

I agree that he's one of if not the most complex hero to set up, I regularly only play it nonchalantly in groups that can easily generate lots of combos (eg 2+ Jinxed members and a Jester + MaA for the occasional order). And it can be underwhelming to min roll.

6 is still much higher than other heroes mins tho and DD2 Leper is def more consistent than DD1 so doing an average of his damage doesn't work. Additionally, he synergizes like hell with crit and attack tokens. Rly, try it if you never have before. Since iirc we briefly discussed the act 3 boss yesterday, know that the team I'm able to beat it most consistently with consists of: PD, GR, Leper and MaA.

Aight, thanks for the hints! So all is not lost and hopeless. lol

[Sovereign246]

Have you tried him with the occultist? deamons pull and weakening curse (i think that's the right one) means that you can pretty much have a guy marked at all times for chop. Pretty fun to pull a back liner to the front and have him evaporate.

Honestly the issue I've been having with him is that Chop, withstand and solemnity seem to be his only worthwhile skills. Hew and break still apply blind and i believe break needs to be upgraded to get the combo synergy that chop has base. I'm sure reflection has its place but i find it a waste not just because of his base blind but also because blind seems to be a fairly common side effect of diseases and negative quirks as well as enemy skills. I've been using intimidate more and that does seem good to use when you don't have a combo applied.

[The Face]

Plenty of marks are part of what you want for him anyways. He loves an occultist pullling people because it marks them half the time.

Also, he can resist his own blind if you buff his debuff resist. And hew hits both if even one has the mark.

But yeah a lot of great skills also mark, like upgraded smokescreen, razors wit, the mentioned daemon's pull.

It's work, but his min damage is the max fo some character's attacks and a sauced leper can crit for like 50-70 I have seen at the end

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Sovereign246:

Have you tried him with the occultist? deamons pull and weakening curse (i think that's the right one) means that you can pretty much have a guy marked at all times for chop. Pretty fun to pull a back liner to the front and have him evaporate.

Honestly the issue I've been having with him is that Chop, withstand and solemnity seem to be his only worthwhile skills. Hew and break still apply blind and i believe break needs to be upgraded to get the combo synergy that chop has base. I'm sure reflection has its place but i find it a waste not just because of his base blind but also because blind seems to be a fairly common side effect of diseases and negative quirks as well as enemy skills. I've been using intimidate more and that does seem good to use when you don't have a combo applied.

Occultist is pretty much the only hero I tried him with. He was always on the team IIRC. The grab and smash is neat, yea.

Break seems like a good idea to get through Block tokens but it's damage is only slightly higher vs doing a Chop vs blocks. The only upside I can see is that Break removes all stacks of block instead of just 1. Is that worth the tradeoff? I dunno.

Reflection is nice imo bc it loses the cooldon when mastered, ups his DBF res and heals tons of stress.

Intimidate is definitely a thing to look into for a more spammable move and indirect tanking (you weaken them instead of strengthening yourself).

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by The Face:

Plenty of marks are part of what you want for him anyways. He loves an occultist pullling people because it marks them half the time.

Also, he can resist his own blind if you buff his debuff resist. And hew hits both if even one has the mark.

But yeah a lot of great skills also mark, like upgraded smokescreen, razors wit, the mentioned daemon's pull.

It's work, but his min damage is the max fo some character's attacks and a sauced leper can crit for like 50-70 I have seen at the end

Yeah, I know about the Occultist stuff and the DBF res helping him. They're nice.

I didn't know Hew worked that way, that's cool.

Smokescreen does mark but often I'd wanna put it on enemies the Leper can't reach because of its blind component. Plus, I feel like hitting an enemy that you debuffed is a waste of tempo when squishier targets are available. Razor's Wit and Pull I've been using, yes.

Yes, he can reach big numbers but my issue with this is the tradeoff. Sure, he might hit for 50-70 when the stars align or you buff him several times, either with other characters or with self buffs. But is that really worth all the tempo and damage lost elsewhere? It just seems like a trying to do multiple wrongs to make a right kind of thing.

I want him to be self sufficiently buffing the crap out of himself then go on a rampage, melting enemies every turn. I'm not sure how to make that work or if it's possible at all.

[Aria Kawa]

I'd rather use other heroes than the leper. It doesn't matter if you buff his resistance to 90% with trinkets, the game is hardcoded to basically flip a coin at the start of every battle and you can start with one or two blind tokens that will make you either gamble on a lucky attack or waste a turn using reflection.

I've found out in my sucessfull runs that I'd rather have a stronger start at every battle using hellion to instantly delete a front enemy with her skill, or having an MAA using retribuition.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Aria Kawa:

I'd rather use other heroes than the leper. It doesn't matter if you buff his resistance to 90% with trinkets, the game is hardcoded to basically flip a coin at the start of every battle and you can start with one or two blind tokens that will make you either gamble on a lucky attack or waste a turn using reflection.

I've found out in my sucessfull runs that I'd rather have a stronger start at every battle using hellion to instantly delete a front enemy with her skill, or having an MAA using retribuition.

Yeah, he seems more like a "oooh big numbers" hero than an actually consistently useful one.

[Sovereign246]

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

Originally posted by Sovereign246:

Have you tried him with the occultist? deamons pull and weakening curse (i think that's the right one) means that you can pretty much have a guy marked at all times for chop. Pretty fun to pull a back liner to the front and have him evaporate.

Honestly the issue I've been having with him is that Chop, withstand and solemnity seem to be his only worthwhile skills. Hew and break still apply blind and i believe break needs to be upgraded to get the combo synergy that chop has base. I'm sure reflection has its place but i find it a waste not just because of his base blind but also because blind seems to be a fairly common side effect of diseases and negative quirks as well as enemy skills. I've been using intimidate more and that does seem good to use when you don't have a combo applied.

Occultist is pretty much the only hero I tried him with. He was always on the team IIRC. The grab and smash is neat, yea.

Break seems like a good idea to get through Block tokens but it's damage is only slightly higher vs doing a Chop vs blocks. The only upside I can see is that Break removes all stacks of block instead of just 1. Is that worth the tradeoff? I dunno.

Reflection is nice imo bc it loses the cooldon when mastered, ups his DBF res and heals tons of stress.

Intimidate is definitely a thing to look into for a more spammable move and indirect tanking (you weaken them instead of strengthening yourself).

Fair, personally I've found him quite enjoyable but very much needs support if you want the most damage out of him. But i do need to experiment more

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Sovereign246:

Fair, personally I've found him quite enjoyable but very much needs support if you want the most damage out of him. But i do need to experiment more.

Yeah, I've had my "let's go BIG BONK" moments, don't get me wrong. I just wish I could squeeze those moments out of him more consistently. Most of the time he feels more like a deflating balloon.

[Sovereign246]

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

Originally posted by Sovereign246:

Fair, personally I've found him quite enjoyable but very much needs support if you want the most damage out of him. But i do need to experiment more.

Yeah, I've had my "let's go BIG BONK" moments, don't get me wrong. I just wish I could squeeze those moments out of him more consistently. Most of the time he feels more like a deflating balloon.

To be honest while i'm kinda arguing his corner here i do prefer other heroes over him. I actively disliked leper entirely in DD 1 so the fact i actually enjoy using him in DD 2 is quite novel for me. But i do vastly prefer ravager hellion for example for her damage and self sustain that does not require babying from someone else. Iron swan is a great ability.

Because your right, for every time I've pulled a gunman to the front rank and obliterated them with a 20 damage chop there are at least two times he's hit a combo marked gaunt for 6 damage. And when that happens the rest of the squad really needs to start pulling more than their fair share of the weight. Particularly when your fighting the cultists or get a double two size fight.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Sovereign246:

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

Yeah, I've had my "let's go BIG BONK" moments, don't get me wrong. I just wish I could squeeze those moments out of him more consistently. Most of the time he feels more like a deflating balloon.

To be honest while i'm kinda arguing his corner here i do prefer other heroes over him. I actively disliked leper entirely in DD 1 so the fact i actually enjoy using him in DD 2 is quite novel for me. But i do vastly prefer ravager hellion for example for her damage and self sustain that does not require babying from someone else. Iron swan is a great ability.

Because your right, for every time I've pulled a gunman to the front rank and obliterated them with a 20 damage chop there are at least two times he's hit a combo marked gaunt for 6 damage. And when that happens the rest of the squad really needs to start pulling more than their fair share of the weight. Particularly when your fighting the cultists or get a double two size fight.

Yeah, the struggle is real. lol

[Angarvin]

i like tempest leper with virtuoso jester.
jester's razor wit and fade to black both apply combo token and their chosen paths mean that jester has much higher base speed to always act before the leper. as a result leper is always hitting the combo token and i just ignore the blindness all together while jester is riding 3-4 back and forth.

one can add a sharpshot highwayman with his grapeshot blast to this since that skill doest eat the combo token and thus works great with hew.