Hey DD2....

[Aleddra]

Ratings are mixed. Does anyone know if the devs intend to do something about it?

[DuckieMcduck]

Publicado originalmente por RopeDrink:

The game does not actually have the gameplay loop of Darkest Dungeon;

Actually, it does - broadly speaking - because Darkest Dungeon 2 has taken 95% of its mechanics right out of DD1, albeit tweaked or reshuffled.

Identical? No. There are obviously dips and swerves all over - but I always laugh when critics say it's not like DD1. Unless you're talking about things like Tokens - one of the very few elements unique to the sequel - then you can translate every single feature, mechanic, element, and form of play within DD2 and point to its existence in DD1 or its DLC.
[...]

I appreciate your passion but the presence of Feature/Mechanic/"Element" (?) is not what a gameplay loop is entails.

Gameplay loop is the core repetition in decision making, and it is very different.

In DD2 there's no global management of heroes, virtually every region has a boss, you always fight a boss at the end unless you mess up, no local/total retreats, no virtue/affliction resolve checks, no camping, no hamlet events, no food penalty/obstacles to take in mind when setting out the provision screen, no dungeons to move in, no selling, etc.

You pick heroes exactly once, then go forward, choose left/right/center, choose some event consequences here and there, and fight. This is not a bad thing.

DD1's stat and microfidget hell is much more complex in its loop. This is not necessarily a good thing, but the point is that you cannot take DD1 mentality and shove it in DD2 and vice versa, because the thought process between both gameplay loops are wholly different. If you go in DD2 expecting DD1 grind/cheese/micromanage crackheadedness you're not gonna get it. And that disappointed a lot of people.

[[S³] Rebel Judge]

Publicado originalmente por RopeDrink:

Personally, I love both games, but play them for very different reasons - and while a large portion of detractors probably expected DD1.5, let's not forget the Epic fiasco, as there were literal hate groups going around blacklisting absolutely anything that Epic had breathed on, not to mention tonnes of people who reverted 1-7-year-old positive reviews of DD1 into negative for the same reason. DD2 had to deal with all that before the 'normies' could arrive and cast their own vote, and like it or not, it leaves a bitter taste in the ratings.

Good explanation of the game but DD1 wasn't such a big fkn time waster like a roguelite can be...you could pull out and still have your heroes retain their quirks and trinkets.

You give explanations (arguably good) and defend it like a member of the PR team would (very pationate and knowledgeable) but they are insufficient and irrelevant to a degree.
It was advertised as "Darkest Dungeon 2". (sequel)

DD1 was 1st a dungeon crawler, 2nd a turn based rpg and lastly a roguelite, emphasis on the "lite".
DD2 is firstly a roguelike (not lite), not a dungeon crawler any more and much less of an rpg.

Why?
Cause you have to start from the beggining each time with the target to reach the last boss (like it or not)...meaning, you will not only have to optimize for the bosses you will play (if act one) but also the last one (if act2+ if you know what's coming).
This is limiting your options further (even if there are solutions out there on the random), especially at the start of the game where you're find yourself missing heros and skills that will take "samey" farming of the game to unlock and enjoy it a little to much more.

If you prefered (emphasis on this word) one specific dungeon more than others in DD1 you could farm that one on repeat...now you're put on the "Darkest Road" with randomness at the helm towards what? a mountain...(lol)
What's even more worse is if you decide to "end the expedition" you will lose its progress, quirks and trinkets...a true "roguelike" which imo equals to a huge waste of time for the majority of DD1 players and not only.
Yeah it's a challenging experience in its own, new way and you get to keep the candles (for all their worth) but you lose a ton of freedom in comparison which is bad for a lot of DD1 players.
and with what target? Without a doubt it artificially prolongs the farming and the duration of the game at the very least.

Now...the Altar...unlocking more items on it makes it even more difficult (non arguable) to come across the things you actually want/need as those as well come semi-randomly and most of em you don't even get to keep as I already mentioned above either after you "end the expedition" or fail...thusly reducing the feeling of actual progress and empowerement you would feel in DD1 even further.

I still enjoy playing DD1 and DD2 but DD2 gives you way less reasons to come back to it, especially after a failed run (and you will have many if you don't use guides), feels like a random, self-defeating chore.
DD1 was designed/structured to offer specific difficulty and rewards at specific levels ...this one tries to do something similar but more randomly on almost all aspects... why? "Cause it's too easy if it didn't" or so some great players say which is kindah on point but irrelevant when it's compared to how DD1 played. (the point of this conversation)
If they named it "Not Darkest Dungeon 2" it would be okay, but it's name is DD2.

To the devs I'd say...
"Don't make it a roguelike if you don't want it to be negatively compared to DD1".

Too much was changed for the sake of offering a different, more random, arguably exciting experience (for some) but that will only satisfy the masochistic niche of players who like to play the same and same on a loop, fail or succeeding makes little difference as you are bound by random road battles and not dungeons you can navigate freely in, emphasis on the word freely.
In DD2 you are free to suffer your failure until you either go and read guides or be lucky enough to have the money and the right nodes/drops to fully enjoy yourself as you would in DD1... completely different when you compare the two
"big pictures".
Thusly...the backlash is more than warranted imo when it comes to the "comparison" subject.

Cheers.

[RopeDrink]

Publicado originalmente por UnluckyDuckie:

I appreciate your passion but the presence of Feature/Mechanic/"Element" (?) is not what a gameplay loop is entails.

Oh, I never said it was. In fact, I was very particular about using the words 'broadly speaking'. There are blatant differences, no doubt, but there are more blatant similarities by comparison.

Ultimately, my previous post was less about the direct loops, and more of an eye-roll towards criticisms about DD2 being absolutely nothing like DD1 at all, which is nonsensical when you can trace almost every technical and mechanical aspect back to the original.

Publicado originalmente por Judge Ⓢ #FreeChitch:

It was advertised as "Darkest Dungeon 2". (sequel)

To be fair, when I play Final Fantasy-XIV, I don't expect the fourteenth iteration of Final Fantasy-I. The fact DD-2 was advertised as a sequel to DD-1 simply means it's a sequel to DD-1. It doesn't mean it's literally going to be DD-1.1 from a mechanical POV.

Ultimately, it all boils down to what the words "Darkest Dungeon" means to someone. For Joe Soap, it might be the light base-building and 2D dungeon grids. For others, it might just be the Lovecraftian vibes and art style, or the turn-based combat, or some combination of components, and thus, if those desired elements aren't provided, it falls on the alternative elements to re-capture the person.

[[S³] Rebel Judge]

Publicado originalmente por RopeDrink:

Publicado originalmente por UnluckyDuckie:

I appreciate your passion but the presence of Feature/Mechanic/"Element" (?) is not what a gameplay loop is entails.

Oh, I never said it was. In fact, I was very particular about using the words 'broadly speaking'. There are blatant differences, no doubt, but there are more blatant similarities by comparison.

Ultimately, my previous post was less about the loop in each game, and more of an eye-roll towards criticisms about DD2 being absolutely nothing like DD1 at all, which is nonsensical when you can trace almost every technical and mechanical aspect back to the original.

Publicado originalmente por Judge Ⓢ #FreeChitch:

It was advertised as "Darkest Dungeon 2". (sequel)

To be fair, when I play Final Fantasy-XIV, I don't expect the fourteenth iteration of Final Fantasy-I. The fact DD-2 was advertised as a sequel to DD-1 simply means it's a sequel to DD-1. It doesn't mean it's literally going to be DD-1.1 from a mechanical POV.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to blame you for anything tbh. (If it seemed that way)
All I'm saying is that it was marketed as the continuation and besides it's main gameplay (fights, some skills) it feels like a waste of time when compared to the first one due to its randomness.

I've played Final Fantasy games as well for years now (38 years old) ofc you expect the game to evolve but DD2 changed completely how the main game loop plays out.
I'm not a native speaker so pardon me...I think you kindah get my point.
MMos are different than offline single player games so I won't use that comparison as it's ill fitted imo but you argument still stands ofc.

Final Fantasy games have evolved as well but it was done slowly and gradually throughout the years.
It was also done with subtle changes that some hated but the majority loved (it sticked to it's core gameplay loop and structure for a long time).
After some releases it switched from "turn based" to "action rpg", that brought in some criticism ofc but still the majority loved it.

DD2 imo changed drastically how the game plays (overall) before the firsts' formula was perfected or was even frowned upon for being "the same but a little bit upgraded".

I like DD1 more than DD2 cause it doesn't waste my time.
DD2 requires from you to sink a lot of time in one run and the rewards feel underwhelming cause it tries to capitalize on the saying "the journey is its own reward" which can be true tbh but imo it succeeds on it very few times for people to consider it "time well spent" and when it fails it feels way worse than wiping in DD1.

Most of these things can be subjective ofc but the only thing that can't be denied or argued is that the first one didn't waste as much of your time as it let you keep what you earned wether you reached
"the end" or not, this one forces you to either play act 1 (easy to beat) or try your luck on act 2+ and waste what you built if/when your team dies (very common occurance) since there's no withdrawing either....very very wasteful for people that don't have time to waste.

Cheers ^^

[RopeDrink]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to blame you for anything tbh. (If it seemed that way)
All I'm saying is that it was marketed as the continuation and besides it's main gameplay (fights, some skills) it feels like a waste of time when compared to the first one due to its randomness.

I understand - and don't worry, nobody feels blamed or harmed. We're all sharing our different opinions, and there's nothing wrong with not agreeing.

Having said that, (a) DD2 is infinitely less random than DD1, and (b) I must repeat that being a sequel does not dictate that it's going to be a replica of a previous title with a few bells and whistles tied on. If you're an old gamer or movie watcher, then you know that media never has to follow a previous format, even if people expect it to (or believe that it should).

Sometimes, sequels are faithful to the original, possibly with a graphical overhaul, or perhaps some new features (etc). Other times, sequels can be a complete reimagining of the old formula, possibly with a few common threads, but still coming across as a separate entity.

It's a risky approach, for sure, because if people love X, and see X+1 coming out, then they'll (typically) want more of the same. That may be common sense, but it's not a rule. Then, you have the people who are on the cusp of liking it, but they don't, because it lacks A, B and C, or isn't more like Z, or wish it would do something a little different.

No matter how you cut it, you simply can't please everyone.

[[S³] Rebel Judge]

Publicado originalmente por RopeDrink:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to blame you for anything tbh. (If it seemed that way)
All I'm saying is that it was marketed as the continuation and besides it's main gameplay (fights, some skills) it feels like a waste of time when compared to the first one due to its randomness.

I understand - and don't worry, nobody feels blamed or harmed. We're all sharing our different opinions, and there's nothing wrong with not agreeing.

Having said that, (a) DD2 is infinitely less random than DD1, and (b) I must repeat that being a sequel does not dictate that it's going to be a replica of a previous title with a few bells and whistles tied on. If you're an old gamer or movie watcher, then you know that media never has to follow a previous format, even if people expect it to (or believe that it should).

Sometimes, sequels are faithful to the original, possibly with a graphical overhaul, or perhaps some new features (etc). Other times, sequels can be a complete reimagining of the old formula, possibly with a few common threads, but still coming across as a separate entity.

It's a risky approach, for sure, because if people love X, and see X+1 coming out, then they'll (typically) want more of the same. That may be common sense, but it's not a rule. Then, you have the people who are on the cusp of liking it, but they don't, because it lacks A, B and C, or isn't more like Z, or wish it would do something a little different.

No matter how you cut it, you simply can't please everyone.

Heeeey... c'mon now...how can you say that with a str8 face? infinitelly less random ?
What is less random, is it the inn buffs? (they were random on DD1 as well) or the combat items (didnt exist in DD1) or maybe the trinkets which are semi random (path wise) that you are not allowed to keep (after end of expedition) or sell, or maybe the fact that they may show up or not...these are factors that dissatisfy a lot of people. (-_-)

Either way, i do agree with you said "you can't please everybody" but you sure as hell can do a better job to understand what is going to alienate a sizable (if not a BiG) part of your playerbase and i say that while i have spent 500 hours in DD1 want to finish the game like a hopless masohist myself xD cause i love it overall.

Ofc we don't have to agree on everything and we both love the game in our own ways but some things just make sense.
Thanks for the mature responses and the understanding.