Why did CA use Troy and Homer's characters instead of Wilusa and it's kings?

[Lei]

As title said, why use fiction faction and characters when there were historical records of Wilusa?

[Iskar]

What records on Wilusa do we have beyond the Alaksandu-treaty?

[Lei]

There were historical records of Wilusa. They were also in good terms with Hittites.

[dulany67]

The simple answer is that they are well known characters and their assets are available cheap for what is a massive free update.

[Hexagoros]

Originally posted by dulany67:

The simple answer is that they are well known characters and their assets are available cheap for what is a massive free update.

This.

Originally posted by Lei:

There were historical records of Wilusa. They were also in good terms with Hittites.

You can point to the handful of references we have for 'any' of the factions in game that aren't Egypt, but that doesn't change the reality of this time period. The fact of the matter is that Egypt is the 'only' faction in-game for which we have any substantial historical record.

Let's say we pick "Random King 2 of Wilusa" for whom we know virtually nothing beyond his name and a rough estimate of when he ruled. Okay, now what?

What does that give the devs to work with? The devs would have to make up so much about Random King 2 that the representation in-game would functionally be a fictional character when all is said and done.

[Kendji]

Blame Heinrich Schliemann. He, while excavating did irreversable damage to the site. Incl. digging up the spot where the Palace (and any potential archives) would've been. So every written record we have of the place comes from outside Troy, when said powers had to deal with Troy somehow. Which means the records are spotty.

[Yews]

You are asking this about a game whose entire Egyptian province system is completely made-up and does not use a single real Egyptian province name except Waset, which is just a random coincidence because all the provinces are named after random cities and the province Waset just happens to had been actually called after the eponymous city in real life.

You are asking this about a game where famous kingdoms from the era, such as Kalashma, Yenoam etc. are literally not on the map, and in their place there are entire made-up countries like ‘Manyan Phrygia’ and ‘Hetch’.

You are asking this about a game that’s got a bunch of obscure points of interest no one except the devs ever heard about in it, but where giant geographical features that defined the landscape and strategy of Late Bronze Age Middle East are absent. We’re talking entire seas and islands. While there are islands where no islands have ever been.

[Kendji]

Well, implementing the Nomal structure would been cool tbh. Though considering that some of the Med2/E crowed think single province countries are more historical I do like the twp solution more.
The western desert has a lot of mines. I get from a gameplay angle why their there and it's more fun their there. Though their historicity is doubtful, the area had trade routs and Oasises.
I would love the a proper representation of the nomes. Don't know in gameplay terms how well they would fit, if it ended up more single province settlements or nomes with invented minor settlements. If that would be any better, I honestly don't think so. In manyways the current provinces are larger then the historical nomes.

As for Phyrgia, I wouldn't be as certain as you. I already covered why in that other thread. From the different books etc. that I've read, authors seem to agree with you or disagree and think thet showed up around 1200 bc ish. Usually, when reading the, tbh scholary speculation, on why x scholar thinks what their arguments usually boil down to who they think wiped Hattusha off the map, technically it was evacuated then parts (temples etc.) burned, but... If awnser is Phyrgians, then they must've been in Anatolia much earlier already, or so they reason. So yes, the name Manyan Phyrgia may be invented, but the Phyrgians may or may not be. Btw, scholars, seem as confident as you, but when you compare their stuff they may often contradict one another's points of view.
Also I've only read about Kalashma, with the author just mentioning it in passing and not mentioning anything after 1200bc-ish-ish-ish on it, what happened after? So far I don't see any smoking gun evidence to push the Phyrgian view either way, with the certainty you bring. How can you be that million percent sure, when authors like, Bryce, Stone, McQueen something, Labruto etc. all seem to have different takes on it.

As to Hetch, yeah, haven't heard of it before this game.

[Yews]

None of the road systems in the game line up with the actual highways of 1205 BC. In real life there was no direct communication between Dakhla and Farafra (which were actually called Kenemet and Ta-ihu by the way; their in-game names are the names of modern Arabic places, not their real 1205 BC names).

The Western Desert was mostly known for its wine and pastures. None of this is represented in the game. The mining happened in Biau, that is modern Sinai. In the game, the peninsula indeed has got mines on it, but their names and locations do not line up with anything historical.

Even if you accept that a Phrygian migration overwhelmed Western Hattusha in 1205 BC, no source refers to a ‘Manyan Phrygia’ coexisting with ‘Ascanian Phrygia’ and separate ‘Phrygian Invaders’.

These factions are by far not the only imaginary ones in the game.

I wonder if details such as the presence of a Cult Centre in Western Hattusha and Seti’s capital standing in the location of a real city where Set was the patron god are intentional. Because other Cult Centres make no sense and Seti’s capital is named after a city that was not where Seti’s capital in the game is, so I think those might be just really lucky coincidences. As in something must’ve been gotten right even if by sheer luck.

[Klutch]

Homer was just some dude.

"Ah, back in 1200 BC, before tales took form on parchment, we were many Homers, keepers of oral traditions. We wove epic stories around campfires, each bard adding his touch. One among us, truly remarkable, painted scenes so vivid, you'd swear you were there. Aye, much of it spun from imagination, but within those verses lay a kernel of truth. Our stories, they were not just tales—they were the heartbeats of our people, carrying the essence of our times, hidden deep within the grand epics." - Preface from The Illiad, Annals of the Library of (fragment lost do to age)

[Kendji]

Originally posted by Yews:

None of the road systems in the game line up with the actual highways of 1205 BC. In real life there was no direct communication between Dakhla and Farafra (which were actually called Kenemet and Ta-ihu by the way; their in-game names are the names of modern Arabic places, not their real 1205 BC names).

Ok, snappy, but agreed. Though we have documentation from the pre-New Kingdom period of both the Hyksos and Nubians communicating and trading via the western desert, because, if memory serves, Kamose had his forces intercept this traffic. The Hyksos tried to spur the Nubians to mobilize against him. Not sure what route they took though through the desert.

Originally posted by Yews:

The Western Desert was mostly known for its wine and pastures. None of this is represented in the game. The mining happened in Biau, that is modern Sinai. In the game, the peninsula indeed has got mines on it, but their names and locations do not line up with anything historical.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Yews:

Even if you accept that a Phrygian migration overwhelmed Western Hattusha in 1205 BC, no source refers to a ‘Manyan Phrygia’ coexisting with ‘Ascanian Phrygia’ and separate ‘Phrygian Invaders’.

These factions are by far not the only imaginary ones in the game.

Well all the dates tend to be ballpark, which is annoying, roughly 1200bc. Sure the names are made up, the later Phrygians had sub-divisions, the same lack of evidence can't clarify if we buy the early arrival, in what form they arrived. As I see it CA's guess is as good as any. From what I gather the term is a Greek catch all term for what may have been a group of peoples. So if they are going to be depicted in game, shouldn't they have names?

Originally posted by Yews:

I wonder if details such as the presence of a Cult Centre in Western Hattusha and Seti’s capital standing in the location of a real city where Set was the patron god are intentional. Because other Cult Centres make no sense and Seti’s capital is named after a city that was not where Seti’s capital in the game is, so I think those might be just really lucky coincidences. As in something must’ve been gotten right even if by sheer luck.

Yes agreed, the place that are in places of other settlements can be fixed see here;
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3259231789&searchtext=
I myself have tried to point to some errors.

As to cult centers and Seti's capital. First off the placement of the main Egyptian and Canaanite factions is plain wrong for the most part. Seti's & Tausert's best evidence indicate they should be placed in the Delta (Pi-Ramesses is one suggestion by Dodson, where they set up shop as Amenmesse came close to Mennefer). They btw Married in, was it 1202 bc, meaning after the civil war had already started, but after game start. The general thought is that the marriage brought something to the table that helped Seti turn the tide. While for Setnakhte, we have no clue where he's at at this time only later on is he commanding forces in the south somewhere when he launches his bid and Tausert eventually flee to Pi-Ramesses like Seti had done earlier.
None of this is represented properly.
While Cult Centers, yes I agree.

I'm hoping to correct part of this if inheritance in introduced. Seti inherits Mennefer, Tausert Seti (if no alternative), Ramesses Setnakhte etc.

[Yews]

That rename mod is actually not at all historical either because Ammonia is a Classical Greek name for a city that isn’t even attested in this era, the actual province/faction centered on Mennefer was called Inebu-hedj rather than Mennefer etc.

[Kendji]

Ok, previously snappy, now missing the point and having expectations that probably won't fullfilled to the full by devs, thus setting one self up for dissapointment. Not willing to help sort out problems other than critisizing names, placements and the like.. I was simply indicating they could use help finding place names to change and what to change them to, knowledge. If that's too angsty, one could make a forum post listing all erronious names and proposing corrections, then maybe somebody will see that and understand the extent, make fixes. Ppl may not be super read on history tbh.
From a customer support perspective, just saying something is s**t, wrong or what ever is usually less helpful. :)

Btw, Mennefer was the actual official New Kingdom name. From my understanding the Nomemarchial name remained Inebu-hedj and many ppl would still have refered to it by that name. Thus it is historical strickly speaking.
Indeed, Ammonia does sound Greek

[Hori]

Total War traditionally does not meet expectations and requires modding in order to become more faithful to its setting than not. Sofia doing it themselves would be a firster.

P. S. Ammonia sounds Greek because it is Greek. The settlement this name refers to rose to prominence in the Iron Age. The relevant settlement in the area around 1200 BC was Khetem Hep slightly to the west.

[Defmonkey]

Its the closest its ever been.... No total war has been overly accurate. Not sure why we are expecting this to be the paragon of such.

[Hori]

Originally posted by Defmonkey:

Its the closest its ever been....

No.