The Leto issue ...

[Arimanius]

Good evening everyone.

I've been doing a few games with Kronos to try out the automaton aggression strategy going classical through Leto and the results are far from being satisfying.

I played versus Zeus players, and even with a handful of human units to assist automatons do awfully against heroes plus in theory they're efficient to deal with myth units but minotaurs hack them down with their special attack and high HP.

Spider lair isn't much better, kill instantly 3 units (at best) okay cool and then what ?
You could spam it to ambush a whole army yet even if you manage to do so as a Leto follower you usually don't have the tools to capitalize on that largely because automatons are so weak.

They set a low favor cost for recast but imo they should increase it to lower the cooldown since the nature of the god power makes it pretty much useless in later stages anyway.

Also I don't see any relevant synergy behind the oracle LOS upgrade, I wouldn't say it's useless but takes a bit much queue time for what it is. XD

I'd appreciate to get some feedback from Atlantean players, did you ever managed to make Leto as viable as her classical age competitors in any game you played so far ?

[Orb]

I think they're weak too. I don't play atlanteans but I've played some games vs mass automatons and turma's and minotaurs + heroes hoplites deals with it pretty early. Anubites are also much stronger.

[Arimanius]

Originally posted by Orb:

I think they're weak too. I don't play atlanteans but I've played some games vs mass automatons and turma's and minotaurs + heroes hoplites deals with it pretty early. Anubites are also much stronger.

Thank you for you answer.

Yeah, automatons are supposed to be viable as a raiding unit yet from all I've seen they're only efficient as a strictly defensive force or to complement a frontline.

They're way too situational while being Leto's primary focus, I don't think I'm exagerrating to think either automatons or Leto need a rework to propose more gameplay diversity.

[Arimanius]

I think they should rework automatons by giving them higher hack resistance and HP yet in parralel introduce a mechanic that makes them sustain more damage when they are targeted by multiple enemies at once. With that it'd force more micro from both sides and automatons repairing during combat would be a big thing.

For spider lair they could keep the number of spiders to three, take back the cooldown to 2 minutes yet allow them to apply a strong slow to enemy villies whenever they step on the burrows.

In any case they can't let Leto as is.

[H11DN-D4NG3R]

(Non competitive/Pvp Player)
The thing with automatons is that they "Dont die" and are usually more cost efficient...if they dont just get fully wiped out. with usually happens.

For Spider lairs. well, i sometime use them as Vision beacons, (Depending on some upgrades and stuff, they provide a reasonable Vision line)

Just have them somewhere about, they provide practically permanent vision of said area untill a Unit triggers it,

[ninakoru]

Not sure what do you expect, actually the strat is pretty lame and effective, a 3 min timing to classic with chronos, timeshift the temple near and start your raiding with 2 automatons rightaway, and a third coming.

You can also deconstruct his temple, so he needs to build it again to get heroes.

Target villagers, he will lose some or at least move them around his TC, when temple is placed again you can cancel it just attacking it, if not below TC fire.

Extremely oppresive, will give your opponents a ver hard time if well executed. At the very least you will delay him far greater than your own resource loss going classic so early.

[Arimanius]

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Not sure what do you expect, actually the strat is pretty lame and effective, a 3 min timing to classic with chronos, timeshift the temple near and start your raiding with 2 automatons rightaway, and a third coming.

You can also deconstruct his temple, so he needs to build it again to get heroes.

Target villagers, he will lose some or at least move them around his TC, when temple is placed again you can cancel it just attacking it, if not below TC fire.

Extremely oppresive, will give your opponents a ver hard time if well executed. At the very least you will delay him far greater than your own resource loss going classic so early.

What I expect is simple, I expect Leto to be granted as much utility as Oceanus and Prometheus.

Yes thing is at 3 min plus the opponent already has heroes in their base while advancing next age : greeks have at least 1 hero (stronger than other civs), egyptians have the pharaoh plus one priest, norse has been training 1-2 hersir.

Even after deconstruct if they are coherent they rebuild the temple either right below TC fire or in a remote place where the Kronos player doesn't have vision. Then it's all about who has better micro, though you should definitely play the matchup vs Zeus or Hades to figure what I'm talking about.

[Arimanius]

Originally posted by H11DN-D4NG3R:

(Non competitive/Pvp Player)
The thing with automatons is that they "Dont die" and are usually more cost efficient...if they dont just get fully wiped out. with usually happens.

For Spider lairs. well, i sometime use them as Vision beacons, (Depending on some upgrades and stuff, they provide a reasonable Vision line)

Just have them somewhere about, they provide practically permanent vision of said area untill a Unit triggers it,

Automatons always get wiped out as soon as the opponent musters a few heroes, greek heroes in particular literally two shot them.
It's quite ironic if you consider they are in theory the civ to which mass automaton is the most viable against since they can't go mass hero.

Spider lair is originally meant to be an ambush god power, and yes the vision granted by spiders can be useful but honestly between that and the value of carnivora ... looks a bit of a joke imo. XD

[ninakoru]

Originally posted by Arimanius:

What I expect is simple, I expect Leto to be granted as much utility as Oceanus and Prometheus.

Yes thing is at 3 min plus the opponent already has heroes in their base while advancing next age : greeks have at least 1 hero (stronger than other civs), egyptians have the pharaoh plus one priest, norse has been training 1-2 hersir.

Even after deconstruct if they are coherent they rebuild the temple either right below TC fire or in a remote place where the Kronos player doesn't have vision. Then it's all about who has better micro, though you should definitely play the matchup vs Zeus or Hades to figure what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that's about it, still heroes do near no damage until classic age is up, the only problem until then is the Town center.

Of course there's counterplay, if not, would be forcefully nerfed in some way. Still is extremely oppressive and the opponent need to react nearly flawlessly to not get a huge economic loss, if not the game entirely.

Leto is a defensive god, aside that lame strat (legit tough), automatons can self-repair, so any winning match means you get back your automatons. Spiders is placing them in wanted spots and lure the enemy in or protect choke points. Volcanic forge is huge, 15% pierce res to all human units, heroes, and automatons, and on top of that you get a little more favor and vision with oracles.

Yeah the other two classical gods have overall more direct impact/utility, but Leto still has a lot to offer. Defensive gods are usually the most busted on paper, still defensive play is much harder to pull off effectively than aggressive play.

[clstnilo]

Automations are trash. When i see somebody attacking me with autimations i do nothing they are harmless....

[Susen]

Originally posted by ninakoru:

still defensive play is much harder to pull off effectively than aggressive play.

from what I've seen and heard defensive play is literally impossible in retold

[Valkez]

Originally posted by Susen:

Originally posted by ninakoru:

still defensive play is much harder to pull off effectively than aggressive play.

from what I've seen and heard defensive play is literally impossible in retold

Passive defensive is impossible. You can always fight under stationary defenses and you will certainly have the edge. The damage from buildings is far from useless against non-specialized units.

[Arimanius]

Originally posted by Susen:

Originally posted by ninakoru:

still defensive play is much harder to pull off effectively than aggressive play.

from what I've seen and heard defensive play is literally impossible in retold

Even in legacy passive gameplay is very often a bad stance, like even if you don't try to win by attacking directly your opponent you have at least to fight for town centers. If you don't secure tcs or gold mines you'll fall behind in pop/gold production and hard lose.

[Arimanius]

Originally posted by ninakoru:

Originally posted by Arimanius:

What I expect is simple, I expect Leto to be granted as much utility as Oceanus and Prometheus.

Yes thing is at 3 min plus the opponent already has heroes in their base while advancing next age : greeks have at least 1 hero (stronger than other civs), egyptians have the pharaoh plus one priest, norse has been training 1-2 hersir.

Even after deconstruct if they are coherent they rebuild the temple either right below TC fire or in a remote place where the Kronos player doesn't have vision. Then it's all about who has better micro, though you should definitely play the matchup vs Zeus or Hades to figure what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that's about it, still heroes do near no damage until classic age is up, the only problem until then is the Town center.

Of course there's counterplay, if not, would be forcefully nerfed in some way. Still is extremely oppressive and the opponent need to react nearly flawlessly to not get a huge economic loss, if not the game entirely.

Leto is a defensive god, aside that lame strat (legit tough), automatons can self-repair, so any winning match means you get back your automatons. Spiders is placing them in wanted spots and lure the enemy in or protect choke points. Volcanic forge is huge, 15% pierce res to all human units, heroes, and automatons, and on top of that you get a little more favor and vision with oracles.

Yeah the other two classical gods have overall more direct impact/utility, but Leto still has a lot to offer. Defensive gods are usually the most busted on paper, still defensive play is much harder to pull off effectively than aggressive play.

Honestly I'm unsure we play the same game. XD

Well I would say automaton aggression is a strategy that can actually function under specific circumstances and only in certain matchups but that's the issue, it's too situational and when it does work you're not certain to win the game. Even pros like Recon or 3DBee can hardly make it work into victory.

It requires good micro and careful positionning, it's not stronger than krush or promethean spam. Another con is the fact automatons don't deal nearly as much to buildings than promethans do, since they don't have crush damage.

In legacy Leto was already the least interesting option among the 3 atlantean classical gods but with Retold and the new features, new upgrades it's only worse.

[renehvac]

Originally posted by Susen:

Originally posted by ninakoru:

still defensive play is much harder to pull off effectively than aggressive play.

from what I've seen and heard defensive play is literally impossible in retold

Not when you play Hades