Heimdall buff

[JohnnyBigpocket]

Norse players since the days of the first release have almost never picked Heimdall in the classical age. The rigsthula technology was meant to fix this issue, however it did not work… Heimdall needs a buff for the so far underwealming Einheri myth unit! (Based on the lore, Einheri are practically the same as heroes of ragnarok) Thats why… Einheri should be able to construct buildings. It would really play nicely into the theoretical, so far non existent norse defensive earlygame 2tc playstyle, that Heimdall could and absolutely should have access to along with rigsthula and safeguard.

[Exit]

I think Heimdall has an issue with unit survivabillity. Default Norse only got healing from their Classic age gods, Heimdall is the only one of those who does not have any form of healing to dash out. It also don't help that the Einheri only got a x2 modifier against myth units.

[Arimanius]

Heimdall does have a weird design, he probably could use a little bit of healing through a tech for instance.

Although it would be fair that healing wouldn’t be as efficient as other Norse minor gods because of rigsthula but also einheri.

[The Owlogram]

I'm pretty sure Heimdall is like the most buffed minor god in all of Retold

[Dakota]

I still can't believe people don't find heimdall just OP. Half off gold prices to get a second TC up or any other gold building, way stronger defenses, 20% faster *everything* including villager production and age ups so you just will have an eco advantage even on single TC vs single TC, a myth unit that's a walking mini flaming weapons buff along with speed boost so the enemy can't run as well, it just wins fights so well it's insane, then a good god power for sieging stuff down early on too.

I know people don't pick him much, but he really has a lot going for him.

[Arimanius]

Originally posted by Dakota:

I still can't believe people don't find heimdall just OP. Half off gold prices to get a second TC up or any other gold building, way stronger defenses, 20% faster *everything* including villager production and age ups so you just will have an eco advantage even on single TC vs single TC, a myth unit that's a walking mini flaming weapons buff along with speed boost so the enemy can't run as well, it just wins fights so well it's insane, then a good god power for sieging stuff down early on too.

I know people don't pick him much, but he really has a lot going for him.

Well I may have an explanation at least for Loki Heimdall, with Loki you want to play aggressive so if you do go Heimdall you want to make full use of Einheri & also grab their upgrade but Norse don't have as much favor as other civs very early so not only it delays rigsthula and safeguard but on top of that you can hardly focus on rushing down an opponent and properly setting up an economic boom at the same time.

Finally Einheri are very slow, quite vulnerable when isolated and require neat micro to optimize their ability so overall it feels more of an "all or nothing" option.

I guess Odin Heimdall is significantly more interesting although I haven't seen much Odin gameplay myself.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Arimanius:

Originally posted by Dakota:

I still can't believe people don't find heimdall just OP. Half off gold prices to get a second TC up or any other gold building, way stronger defenses, 20% faster *everything* including villager production and age ups so you just will have an eco advantage even on single TC vs single TC, a myth unit that's a walking mini flaming weapons buff along with speed boost so the enemy can't run as well, it just wins fights so well it's insane, then a good god power for sieging stuff down early on too.

I know people don't pick him much, but he really has a lot going for him.

Well I may have an explanation at least for Loki Heimdall, with Loki you want to play aggressive so if you do go Heimdall you want to make full use of Einheri & also grab their upgrade but Norse don't have as much favor as other civs very early so not only it delays rigsthula and safeguard but on top of that you can hardly focus on rushing down an opponent and properly setting up an economic boom at the same time.

Finally Einheri are very slow, quite vulnerable when isolated and require neat micro to optimize their ability so overall it feels more of an "all or nothing" option.

I guess Odin Heimdall is significantly more interesting although I haven't seen much Odin gameplay myself.

Odin in general doesn't get a lotta use since he has some problems in general. Though I've had good success with heimdall on loki given the Einheri's buff's bonus damage helps with summoning in more myth units too, so it snowballs pretty hard. Rigsthula helps across the board with getting more military out faster while also ecoing up faster, so it pairs up pretty well. I tend to forward build the temple with Loki, so the enheri doesn't really have a long ways to walk. The horn's speed boost can also be used to help the enherjar escape if the fight's going bad or you just haven't engaged and want to use it to run faster to reposition.

That said, the main thing against it for Loki is just troll spam is so good, excess wood can be pumped into trolls over throwing axemen, and as you fight early game in some raids you start amassing trolls and their specials can wipe a whole group of units pretty quick, and fast hersir is nice too. Thinking about it, your myth unit is gonna be slow regardless with loki.

[Rhalius]

Getting some healing is just too good to pass up. It's why Heimdall has always been a less attractive pick.
The stone throwing trolls and healing valkyries are both just more useful myth units for the Norse.
Both fill a gap, Norse aren't that great at range and have no healing by default.

Heimdall I still use more often than Baldr though.

Baldr does not get the fire giant upgrade while Hell does, and Hell gets the mountain and frost giants along with it too, though without their upgrades. Makes no sense.
Ragnarok is also a more situational god power you'll never use more than once, if at all because you tank your economy with it.
Meanwhile all other mythic age gods give god powers you can always use. Repeatedly.

[Exit]

Balder kind of suffers from being all over the place as a god. A buff for a sige unit that sort of becomes obsolite in that age. A minor buff to calve units but no calve unit to really take advantage of it. A god power to turn your villagers into heroes but no buffs for said heros or even a boost to building new villagers.

[Marvelous Player]

How come people keep saying norse is so weak nowadays? what's changed since extended edition?
I see they can still build buildings around you with soldiers, so they should still be the stronger faction at age 2.
What's different?

[The Owlogram]

I genuinely have no idea actually. When this game was released, Odin was the best faction, and Thor was considered one of the worst but then people realised how good his new bonuses were and he became S tier without any change. Let's not forget Loki who could basically Ragnarok whenever he felt like it because he could change villagers into berserks for free lmao. Maybe it's because balanced Norse are quite a bit worse than release Norse and people feel like it's a big gap.

[Exit]

I don't play enouth multiplayer to have an opinion on how strong or weak they are but some of the Norse gods do have issues. Loki got a useless tech. Heimdall rarely gets picked due to the oppertunity cost. Balder is all over the place and don't do anything well. Norse as a whole might be strong but some of their minor gods are detrimental to pick.

[The Owlogram]

Loki's "useless" tech is a pretty strong vision tool, and used to be so good you only needed to spread a few houses around the map to basically have map hacks. Heimdall has an opportunity cost only if you don't intend to follow his playstyle, but that's kind of the point of having to make a choice, and while Baldr is indeed one of the few minor gods who was kinda made worse in Retold, they buffed fire giants a lot AND they made his raiding cavalry tech an all cavalry tech so now you can get crazy Odin jarls again.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Marvelous Player:

How come people keep saying norse is so weak nowadays? what's changed since extended edition?
I see they can still build buildings around you with soldiers, so they should still be the stronger faction at age 2.
What's different?

Military and economy changes along with the amount of resources in the base and things like upgrades to vill durability early on. For example, it's common to get the survival equipment upgrade (didn't exist in EE, hunting dogs did which boosted hunting and made it more important to go out and hunt and take risk) which significantly boosts villager HP. An atlantean vill is considerably more durable and higher damage than raiding cav in classical, so I'd need to make a raiding cav force that outnumbers the enemy vills to a significant degree to get out of a raid on enemy vills positively, not considering tower and TC fire or the enemy army also being there. Raiding is in a bad spot now unless you can raid with myth units and don't walk into hero citizens or consider everyone has access to some strong age 2 heroes.

While norse can build up buildings around the map early on, it's very easy to just bash them down and their eco is too weak to really be pumping buildings in places that are at risk anyway without weakening themselves in the long run.

Also notable buffs to a lot of units that counter inf extremely well and improvements to anti cav units too while we're at it. Greek can get hypaspist in classical with ares, axemen are stronger than before, fire archers on china get 3x vs infantry, cheiroballista are disgustingly good against infantry and norse has dedicated counter archer specialist and the throwing axemen is only about as good as a toxotes rather than a counter inf unit once armor is considered. The meta has shifted heavily into using counter units effectively since the multipliers on them are so big now.

[Tavish DeGroot]

Give Norse fortified wall upgrade. Allow Heimdall to access this technology. People may scuff at upgrading walls, but having your military construct said walls may prove to be a useful trait.

[JohnnyBigpocket]

Originally posted by Dakota:

I still can't believe people don't find heimdall just OP. Half off gold prices to get a second TC up or any other gold building, way stronger defenses, 20% faster *everything* including villager production and age ups so you just will have an eco advantage even on single TC vs single TC, a myth unit that's a walking mini flaming weapons buff along with speed boost so the enemy can't run as well, it just wins fights so well it's insane, then a good god power for sieging stuff down early on too.

I know people don't pick him much, but he really has a lot going for him.

I agree that his techs are very strong, but they would only be op if they where in any other civ than norse. The winrates with Heimdall are perfectly in check. In the classical age there are just way better options for early and late game for norse. Which is why Heimdall is never picked. Now you could change this by shifting his playstyle away from the kind of defensive to a more offensive one, but that would take away Heimdalls character. The Einheri building construction buff would enable him to really pull of the more defensive and booming kind of game. Which would make him worth picking for odin and loki players.