Fimbulwinter Spam is Hell

[QuillianInkheart]

This is not the only God Power that is made worse by the inclusion of repeatable God Powers. Spider Lair, for instance, has gone from being a useful defensive power, to "If you use any non-mythic units, you lose." For some powers, repetition isn't horrible. The Hesperides Tree, for example, really benefits from multiple casts, as does Valor and Vision.

However, some abilities did NOT work with this shift in status quo. Fimbulwinter and Son of Osiris are the two that leaped out at me the most. Fimbulwinter means, over and over again, you'll be assaulted by wolves at all of your bases. These wolves are extremely powerful and able to crush out defensive towers with ease. I once played a game where the single Norse computer used this ability SIX TIMES, one after another, as soon as it became available. It's an untenable and unfair ability, with multiple castings. I have lost games without the enemies even so much as knocking on my door because they just spam Fimbulwinter and the wolves effortlessly destroy all my towers, town halls, and ultimately peasants. Defenses mean nothing if the wolves spawn inside your bases, and in the late game, where this power is acquired, a skilled player will have multiple town halls, making defense against this power neigh on impossible.

Son of Osiris is also problematic, but that one at least takes time to build up speed and can be defeated with perseverance. In the original game, you got ONE super-powered, over-the-top Demigod who was incredibly powerful but couldn't be healed by any methods. Now? I'll just slap ten of them into my army annnnnnd I'm now basically invincible. And the ability to basically have 20 Pharaohs kinda defeats the purpose of the unit's exclusivity... Originally, you were capped at 3, when running Osiris. Enemy armies attacking a position defended by Sons of Osiris is hell incarnate; they can and will wipe a force three times their size, and you'll be forced to recoup losses and strike again. You'll whittle away the Sons, but that doesn't justify a unit as powerful as them being handed out more than once.

Some of the God Powers were reworked for this new framework - Spider Lair may be OP when spammed, but it also places far fewer eggs per casting than before and allows for more precision. A healthy improvement, if you ask me. But other abilities should be more limited; 4th Era powers are extreme tide-shifters and were originally meant to be a huge boon ONCE. But because the core fundamental rules of the game were changed while the powers were not, we're left with an imbalance problem that is in dire need of fixing.

The easy solution? Much like a "Turn off Titans" option was added, give us a toggle option for "Reusable God Powers." Simple, easy, and effective.

[Angel]

you could also try a rush strategy to hamper them enough to give you a chance to take them out before they even get to mythic age

[QuillianInkheart]

Originally posted by Angel:

you could also try a rush strategy to hamper them enough to give you a chance to take them out before they even get to mythic age

Very true, but there is are a few issues there; enemies that are between defensive allies make a rushing attack near impossible, and this basically makes defensive play an impossible option for players who prefer that playstyle. And given that Fimbulwinter is an available option for every Norse God, besides the new one, it means you'll see this spam a lot. Facing more than one Norse enemy? Get ready for wolves. Lots and lots of wolves. In the game I played against the Norse opponent that was spamming them, the postgame put down that he had over 700 wolves in a very, very short period at the endgame. That is absurd.

God Powers like Fimbulwinter were designed with only a single use in mind; by altering this mechanic without changing the fundamentals of the ability, you've broken the balance of the powers.

[Angel]

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

Originally posted by Angel:

you could also try a rush strategy to hamper them enough to give you a chance to take them out before they even get to mythic age

Very true, but there is are a few issues there; enemies that are between defensive allies make a rushing attack near impossible, and this basically makes defensive play an impossible option for players who prefer that playstyle. And given that Fimbulwinter is an available option for every Norse God, besides the new one, it means you'll see this spam a lot. Facing more than one Norse enemy? Get ready for wolves. Lots and lots of wolves. In the game I played against the Norse opponent that was spamming them, the postgame put down that he had over 700 wolves in a very, very short period at the endgame. That is absurd.

God Powers like Fimbulwinter were designed with only a single use in mind; by altering this mechanic without changing the fundamentals of the ability, you've broken the balance of the powers.

true I suppose in team games the player being protected could be a problem, another way to counter it would be to use ceasefire I guess, it should cost less than what they're doing

[QuillianInkheart]

Originally posted by Angel:

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

Very true, but there is are a few issues there; enemies that are between defensive allies make a rushing attack near impossible, and this basically makes defensive play an impossible option for players who prefer that playstyle. And given that Fimbulwinter is an available option for every Norse God, besides the new one, it means you'll see this spam a lot. Facing more than one Norse enemy? Get ready for wolves. Lots and lots of wolves. In the game I played against the Norse opponent that was spamming them, the postgame put down that he had over 700 wolves in a very, very short period at the endgame. That is absurd.

God Powers like Fimbulwinter were designed with only a single use in mind; by altering this mechanic without changing the fundamentals of the ability, you've broken the balance of the powers.

true I suppose in team games the player being protected could be a problem, another way to counter it would be to use ceasefire I guess, it should cost less than what they're doing

A fair counter-argument. However, this means the player is now limited to always playing a God that has Ceasefire, as NPCs aren't smart enough to use it themselves. Mind you, this is an ability that three of the four Norse Gods have access too, meaning most people/NPCs that play Norse can and will use this ability if it isn't nerfed somehow. Meanwhile, I'm not sure on the recovery time for Ceasefire, but if it's slower than Fimbulwinter, then the point is moot.

[Angel]

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

Originally posted by Angel:

true I suppose in team games the player being protected could be a problem, another way to counter it would be to use ceasefire I guess, it should cost less than what they're doing

A fair counter-argument. However, this means the player is now limited to always playing a God that has Ceasefire, as NPCs aren't smart enough to use it themselves. Mind you, this is an ability that three of the four Norse Gods have access too, meaning most people/NPCs that play Norse can and will use this ability if it isn't nerfed somehow. Meanwhile, I'm not sure on the recovery time for Ceasefire, but if it's slower than Fimbulwinter, then the point is moot.

fairly sure recovery doesn't matter when fimbulwinter costs so much more than ceasefire does and even more to recast, you should only be seeing it 2 times max unless you exclusively play team games against only norse, I think fimbulwinter already received a nerf too

[QuillianInkheart]

Originally posted by Angel:

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

A fair counter-argument. However, this means the player is now limited to always playing a God that has Ceasefire, as NPCs aren't smart enough to use it themselves. Mind you, this is an ability that three of the four Norse Gods have access too, meaning most people/NPCs that play Norse can and will use this ability if it isn't nerfed somehow. Meanwhile, I'm not sure on the recovery time for Ceasefire, but if it's slower than Fimbulwinter, then the point is moot.

fairly sure recovery doesn't matter when fimbulwinter costs so much more than ceasefire does and even more to recast, you should only be seeing it 2 times max unless you exclusively play team games against only norse, I think fimbulwinter already received a nerf too

Wrong. Recovery matters a lot, when the Norse NPCs are super aggro and never want for Favor. Like I said, I had one game where the NPC used Fimbulwinter six times in a row, spaced out evenly, so I can only assume it was recasting it at the precise end of the recovery time, every time. This probably would've continued, only after six swarms of wolves, coupled with attacks from only a single NPC, destroyed any attempts at defense I possibly could've mustered.

But all of that still misses the point. If the only counter you can think of to Fimbulwinter is Ceasefire, then that means if you aren't playing a God who gives you Ceasefire against any major Nord opponent, you run the risk of getting more wolfpiled than Marikplier at a furry convention.

And that was ONE Norse NPC. What do you think would happen if there was two, dropping Fimbulwinter back to back? No pause, just wolves. Even if they were hostile with each other, it hits every base, all at once.

So basically, what you're saying is, I cannot play a game vs. more than one Norse NPC, because I'd be at risk of getting Fimbulwinter spammed into oblivion. So no randomized God fights; gotta be sure those uppity NPCs on standard difficulty don't endlessly spam one ability to instantly win.

Fimbulwinter was never designed to be used more than once a game. It was a very powerful defense-softening and distraction tool. By making it recastable, now an even somewhat competent Norse player can steamroll the entire game, just by engaging in skirmishes to hoard favor, and then wolf spam until all villagers die and bases are eradicated. One cast of Fimbulwinter isn't enough to destroy your base. Two casts is, if you don't immediately stop everything to repair. This is also assuming you managed to ring the bell and keep your villagers from having their faces eaten. Now rinse, wash, and repeat that six times. I'm sorry, did you want to do anything but repair and hit the "Cower in Buildings" button? Too bad, have more wolves.

[Angel]

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

Originally posted by Angel:

fairly sure recovery doesn't matter when fimbulwinter costs so much more than ceasefire does and even more to recast, you should only be seeing it 2 times max unless you exclusively play team games against only norse, I think fimbulwinter already received a nerf too

Wrong. Recovery matters a lot, when the Norse NPCs are super aggro and never want for Favor. Like I said, I had one game where the NPC used Fimbulwinter six times in a row, spaced out evenly, so I can only assume it was recasting it at the precise end of the recovery time, every time. This probably would've continued, only after six swarms of wolves, coupled with attacks from only a single NPC, destroyed any attempts at defense I possibly could've mustered.

But all of that still misses the point. If the only counter you can think of to Fimbulwinter is Ceasefire, then that means if you aren't playing a God who gives you Ceasefire against any major Nord opponent, you run the risk of getting more wolfpiled than Marikplier at a furry convention.

And that was ONE Norse NPC. What do you think would happen if there was two, dropping Fimbulwinter back to back? No pause, just wolves. Even if they were hostile with each other, it hits every base, all at once.

So basically, what you're saying is, I cannot play a game vs. more than one Norse NPC, because I'd be at risk of getting Fimbulwinter spammed into oblivion. So no randomized God fights; gotta be sure those uppity NPCs on standard difficulty don't endlessly spam one ability to instantly win.

Fimbulwinter was never designed to be used more than once a game. It was a very powerful defense-softening and distraction tool. By making it recastable, now an even somewhat competent Norse player can steamroll the entire game, just by engaging in skirmishes to hoard favor, and then wolf spam until all villagers die and bases are eradicated. One cast of Fimbulwinter isn't enough to destroy your base. Two casts is, if you don't immediately stop everything to repair. This is also assuming you managed to ring the bell and keep your villagers from having their faces eaten. Now rinse, wash, and repeat that six times. I'm sorry, did you want to do anything but repair and hit the "Cower in Buildings" button? Too bad, have more wolves.

can we have more information on how you are playing? is it just against A.I.? or team games vs real players etc.? because none of this is an issue in 1v1, you did say NPC multiple times which leads me to believe A.I. if you didn't know already the higher difficulty level A.I. does actually cheat

[QuillianInkheart]

Originally posted by Angel:

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

Wrong. Recovery matters a lot, when the Norse NPCs are super aggro and never want for Favor. Like I said, I had one game where the NPC used Fimbulwinter six times in a row, spaced out evenly, so I can only assume it was recasting it at the precise end of the recovery time, every time. This probably would've continued, only after six swarms of wolves, coupled with attacks from only a single NPC, destroyed any attempts at defense I possibly could've mustered.

But all of that still misses the point. If the only counter you can think of to Fimbulwinter is Ceasefire, then that means if you aren't playing a God who gives you Ceasefire against any major Nord opponent, you run the risk of getting more wolfpiled than Marikplier at a furry convention.

And that was ONE Norse NPC. What do you think would happen if there was two, dropping Fimbulwinter back to back? No pause, just wolves. Even if they were hostile with each other, it hits every base, all at once.

So basically, what you're saying is, I cannot play a game vs. more than one Norse NPC, because I'd be at risk of getting Fimbulwinter spammed into oblivion. So no randomized God fights; gotta be sure those uppity NPCs on standard difficulty don't endlessly spam one ability to instantly win.

Fimbulwinter was never designed to be used more than once a game. It was a very powerful defense-softening and distraction tool. By making it recastable, now an even somewhat competent Norse player can steamroll the entire game, just by engaging in skirmishes to hoard favor, and then wolf spam until all villagers die and bases are eradicated. One cast of Fimbulwinter isn't enough to destroy your base. Two casts is, if you don't immediately stop everything to repair. This is also assuming you managed to ring the bell and keep your villagers from having their faces eaten. Now rinse, wash, and repeat that six times. I'm sorry, did you want to do anything but repair and hit the "Cower in Buildings" button? Too bad, have more wolves.

can we have more information on how you are playing? is it just against A.I.? or team games vs real players etc.? because none of this is an issue in 1v1, you did say NPC multiple times which leads me to believe A.I. if you didn't know already the higher difficulty level A.I. does actually cheat

Ah, that's fair. I enjoy skirmishes against multiple low-to-high level AI. I know Legendary is a downright laughable experience, so I don't touch it, but I also rarely play against Titan level A.I. either. Usually, ever since the first AoM, I play against teams consisting of every pantheon, with one of each God selected, or randomly chosen from said pantheon. Each team has three, with one defender and two attackers (Not that the A.I. does a great job defending anyway...) That fight was one of the first ones I played, so I was still rolling around in Standard to get myself back into the groove. So, that Fimbulwinter spam was from a Standard difficulty AI with the Attacker setting.

Regardless, this in the hands of a player is even more absurd. A skilled Norse player - not A.I. - could very easily abuse this. It's very much a late-game strategy, but I have yet to think up a single cohesive and consistent counter to it. And since it's the final Era choice for all but one Norse God, you can see where I'm fairly certain there are some issues.

Now, I'm not at all saying that I dislike this game. On the contrary, it's a magnificent HD re-release and I am thoroughly enjoying it. But when core mechanics are changed after all the time, it can lead to some speed bumps.

[Stavrozium]

Filbulwinter wolves did get buffed, compared to EE,
this is most likely because the GP was considered very underpowered in EE.
It can now be casted again, but this can be said about all god powers.
Recasting fimbulwinter is insanely expensive, so it requires a wonder, to spam it..
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Fimbulwinter also has a relatively easy counter:
put all your TCs in a control group, (which you should be doing anyways, imho)
and use the town bell with all of them the moment fimbulwinter has been cast;
and send the villagers back to work immediately after the fimbulwinter is over.
This alone will prevent a ton of economic damage, and is quite easy to do.
After that, you can micro your defence a bit more "accurately".

It will still do economic damage by preventing the villagers from gathering resources,
sure, but this is still better than having to spend resources on new villagers.
Now compare this to an earthquake or meteor, that can destroy an entire base in seconds....
(destroying farms/structures => more "guaranteed" economic damage, IF used correctly;
+ they can be used on unit production structures, and armies => much more versatility)
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There are other simple counters, like f.e. building towers/forts near TCs.
Yes, fimbulwinter is quite powerful, (mostly because it is so easy to use)
and *maybe* fimbulwinter could use another small nerf,
but for now, i would suggest learning how to counter it properly,
since even with any potential nerfs, these counters will remain useful.
And once people have learned how to counter it,
it will be considered weak again, even without any nerfs..
In any case, nerfing Fimbulwinter too much will only result in the same situation as in EE..

[DesertRose92]

Are you talking about team games? I can see why it is problematic there as it scales with Settlements.

In 1vs1 it's not more powerful than other age 4 powers.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by QuillianInkheart:

This is not the only God Power that is made worse by the inclusion of repeatable God Powers. Spider Lair, for instance, has gone from being a useful defensive power, to "If you use any non-mythic units, you lose." For some powers, repetition isn't horrible. The Hesperides Tree, for example, really benefits from multiple casts, as does Valor and Vision.

However, some abilities did NOT work with this shift in status quo. Fimbulwinter and Son of Osiris are the two that leaped out at me the most. Fimbulwinter means, over and over again, you'll be assaulted by wolves at all of your bases. These wolves are extremely powerful and able to crush out defensive towers with ease. I once played a game where the single Norse computer used this ability SIX TIMES, one after another, as soon as it became available. It's an untenable and unfair ability, with multiple castings. I have lost games without the enemies even so much as knocking on my door because they just spam Fimbulwinter and the wolves effortlessly destroy all my towers, town halls, and ultimately peasants. Defenses mean nothing if the wolves spawn inside your bases, and in the late game, where this power is acquired, a skilled player will have multiple town halls, making defense against this power neigh on impossible.

Son of Osiris is also problematic, but that one at least takes time to build up speed and can be defeated with perseverance. In the original game, you got ONE super-powered, over-the-top Demigod who was incredibly powerful but couldn't be healed by any methods. Now? I'll just slap ten of them into my army annnnnnd I'm now basically invincible. And the ability to basically have 20 Pharaohs kinda defeats the purpose of the unit's exclusivity... Originally, you were capped at 3, when running Osiris. Enemy armies attacking a position defended by Sons of Osiris is hell incarnate; they can and will wipe a force three times their size, and you'll be forced to recoup losses and strike again. You'll whittle away the Sons, but that doesn't justify a unit as powerful as them being handed out more than once.

Some of the God Powers were reworked for this new framework - Spider Lair may be OP when spammed, but it also places far fewer eggs per casting than before and allows for more precision. A healthy improvement, if you ask me. But other abilities should be more limited; 4th Era powers are extreme tide-shifters and were originally meant to be a huge boon ONCE. But because the core fundamental rules of the game were changed while the powers were not, we're left with an imbalance problem that is in dire need of fixing.

The easy solution? Much like a "Turn off Titans" option was added, give us a toggle option for "Reusable God Powers." Simple, easy, and effective.

These spells or powers are also very expensive though, once you want to use it a second time. Its not like people can spam these spells all the time. You will probably see maximum of 2 of these in a match, mostly just one.

[clstnilo]

Calling Spider Lair OP is shocking! I need a few weeks to get over that statement....

[RobAlca]

i agree op,fimbluwinter is so srtrong that even noobs can win in wonder age

[Shac]

Greek Hermes Ceasefire godpower counters Fimbulwinter hard and is much cheapear to cast. I had some enemies resign in teamgames for this, lol.

[RobAlca]

Originally posted by Shac:

Greek Hermes Ceasefire godpower counters Fimbulwinter hard and is much cheapear to cast. I had some enemies resign in teamgames for this, lol.

its a hard counter for sure but if u dont pick that greek minor god then its gg

of course im talking about ffa games or not ranked lobby with 5-6 teams
if the enemy gets wonder age in ranked that would be weird in the first place

anyway op solution is horrible and should be ignored