Worst God Power?

[David McMurdo]

You're right, it is Leto's "Spider Lair". I've never seen it do one useful thing in two decades and this remake has not changed that situation.

[Stavrozium]

Originally posted by DesertRose92:

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

On the other hand, in EE Atlanteans were often considered overpowered,

Only Oranos. The rest were general considered weak.

I think the reason why the Atlanteans seem underpowered,
is because their citizens now gather resources slower than the other factions,
relatively speaking: they cost x2 pop and total resources,
but only get x1.5 base gather rates, compared to Greeks.
(Norse/Egyptian villager gather rates are a bit lower though)

I think Food is even just x.1.0 base.
At least it feels like Atlanteans Food eco is abysmal.

My main reason why Atlanteans feel so awkward to play is that in Classical Age they have 1 unit in the Barracks and 3 units in the Counter Barracks. In the Heroic Age you have 3 units in the Barracks, and all feel superior to the alternatives in the Counter Barracks.

I would like to see it changed to Murmillo plus Arcus and Katapeltes + Turma in the Classical Age. That way you could play either Murmillo + Turma or Katapeltes + Arcus.

Fair enough, it was mostly Oranos that was deemed OP.

The units in barracks being age 3 has always been this way.
In EE, people used to only use Turmas in age 2,
and mostly used them to harass the opponents.

So this may be why it is awkward to newer players,
but to veteran AoM players, this wouldnt be an issue, at all.
But the changes to Oracles and Citizens does feel awkward, to me,
as a veteran AoM player, (im not a pro, but i grew up with AoM, as a kid)
and i assume many other veteran AoM, as well.

Murmillo now dont have any bonus damage vs cavalry,
instead they are an "all purpose" unit, with high base damage,
but no bonus damage vs 1 type of unit; just like berserks and jarls.
This actually makes them more useful, especially in early game; they are more versatile.
They are still countered by archers, so combine them with Turmas.
(so start with 1 barracks of each type, 1 makes murmillo, the other makes turma;
or start with 2 counter barracks, and only make Turmas, to harass opponents)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I would rather say that cheiroballistas should be age 3,
while Arcus should then become age 2, as the main anti-infantry unit.
Arcus are quite powerful though, mostly due to their range,
(they have the same range as chariot archers, and cheiroballistas..)
so then Arcus would need a small range nerf, (like 18 range)
while cheiroballistas could then use a small buff.
(perhaps some crush damage, to make them better vs structures?)

Anyways, i am making a mod for AoMR, (hence why im looking at the files)
and i was already planning to do this, (among many other changes)
so i dont entirely disagree here. :)

[Stavrozium]

Originally posted by ShakingZealot:

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

Locusts is a pretty good GP? it is primarily meant to use against farms,
rather than units, making its use more situational. (as a base harassment tool)
It deals bonus damage vs farms, but it does have low damage vs everything else.
But at least i CAN now damage units, which it couldnt before,
in the original game and EE, so locust swarm actually got a big buff in retold.

I think given it's a tier 3 spell it should be much more damaging than destoying 3-4 farms if you land a good hit. But it's a tier 3 spell. It has to compete with the likes of bronze skin, flaming weapons, ancestors, etc. Personally I think locusts should work on farms like forest fire works on a treeline making locusts the bane of large, interconnected patches of farms. Would also be fun to see professional players strategically delete farms in order to prevent the locusts from spreading. But yeah, currently locusts is a bit of a meme spell tbh.

I do agree that their damage vs anything but farms is very low.
It is divine damage though, so (i think that) this ignores all armor.
My point was that Locusts are better now, compared to EE.
It has always been very situational, (as in, only useful vs farms and villagers)
and people thought it was a decent GP. Instant economy damage is VERY strong...

And now it is more versatile, as it can be used in combat,
but i do agree that the base damage should get a small buff.
(and the bonus damage vs farms should be lowered, accordingly)

Strategically deleting farms would be a bit silly, imo...
I dont think you even get the resources back, when you delete stuff,
so you would probably do more damage, than the locusts would..
A better way to deal with it, is to garrison the farming villagers into a TC,
so that they dont get killed by the locusts. (just like in EE btw)

I have seen a yt video where someone uses Locusts,
not in combat itself, but when the opponents units were retreating.
Because the GP now deal AoE damage in a line, this did more damage over time,
and it actually killed a few units. Sure, it isnt as powerful as f.e. curse or bronze,
but this is balanced by its versatility, as it can be used as a harassment tool, as well.

[R for Reload]

leto's spider liar is nerfed from the original too, Used to drop 4 eggs not 3.
It shouldn't have a set up time anymore or they should bump it back upto 4

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

Strategically deleting farms would be a bit silly, imo...
I dont think you even get the resources back, when you delete stuff,
so you would probably do more damage, than the locusts would..

I'd imagine the locusts to spread like forest fire. You target a farm and then adjacent farms will get infected too and so on. So basically to sip the chain reaction deleting the farms might be a good move. Or building farms in smaller clusters when playing versus egyptians.

[Stavrozium]

Originally posted by ShakingZealot:

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

Strategically deleting farms would be a bit silly, imo...
I dont think you even get the resources back, when you delete stuff,
so you would probably do more damage, than the locusts would..

I'd imagine the locusts to spread like forest fire. You target a farm and then adjacent farms will get infected too and so on. So basically to sip the chain reaction deleting the farms might be a good move. Or building farms in smaller clusters when playing versus egyptians.

If they changed it to be that way, sure,
but thats not how it works at the moment.
Right now it deals AoE damage in a straight line,
(similar to how Ao Kuang's Flood GP worked in EE, but less powerful)
and i think it is a lot better now, compared to how it was before, in EE.
I do still think it needs a small damage buff, but that could potentially make it OP...

To be honest, changing it to spread like forest fire,
would make it even less useful, than it is right now...
And exactly for the reasons that you mentioned..
It would be countered extremely easily, by spreading the farms, as you say.
Its a cool idea, sure, but in practice, it would be a HUGE nerf to Locust GP...

Keep in mind, forest fire is an age 2 GP, while locusts is Age 3.
So Locusts *should* be more powerful, instead of equally powerful. (or less..)
Trees are a limited resource, that can also block units, (so it opens up a path)
while farms can be built, and can be walked over. (so no value besides eco damage)
Sure, they would need to rebuild farms, but this is already the case...

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

And exactly for the reasons that you mentioned..
It would be countered extremely easily, by spreading the farms, as you say.
Its a cool idea, sure, but in practice, it would be a HUGE nerf to Locust GP...

It depends on how you implement it. How fast does it spread? Can you delete farms that are already infected or are they no longer deleteable once they are infested by the locusts. Can the locusts only spread to farms directly adjacent to each other or can the infection "jump" a few tiles. Sure, testing and tweaking would be necessary. But personally speaking I just think a swarm of locusts exponentially spreading across the farmland is much more thematic approach to the spell rather than making it "Baldur's damage wave but boring".

[Stavrozium]

Originally posted by ShakingZealot:

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

And exactly for the reasons that you mentioned..
It would be countered extremely easily, by spreading the farms, as you say.
Its a cool idea, sure, but in practice, it would be a HUGE nerf to Locust GP...

It depends on how you implement it. How fast does it spread? Can you delete farms that are already infected or are they no longer deleteable once they are infested by the locusts. Can the locusts only spread to farms directly adjacent to each other or can the infection "jump" a few tiles. Sure, testing and tweaking would be necessary. But personally speaking I just think a swarm of locusts exponentially spreading across the farmland is much more thematic approach to the spell rather than making it "Baldur's damage wave but boring".

Sure, you could make it work, depending on how its implemented.
But the same could be said about the way it currently works;
chances are that Locusts will be changed in a future update.
The devs most likely wont completely overhaul it, though...
But who knows, perhaps someone will make a mod,
that changes locusts to work in the way you describe.
Like i said, its a cool idea, in theory, but implementing it is another matter.

Anyways, lets just agree to disagree here.
I personally prefer the way it works now; versatile, but less powerful in general,
while you prefer a more powerful GP, that can only be used in a very specific situation.
We could keep talking about it, but i guess we should then start a new thread.. xD

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

I personally prefer the way it works now; versatile, but less powerful in general,
while you prefer a more powerful GP, that can only be used in a very specific situation.
We could keep talking about it, but i guess we should then start a new thread.. xD

Don't get me wrong, I am generally a fan of directional spells. However I think the spell "locusts" is not only weak but also fails thematically. In my point of view a spell named "locusts" needs to do two things. 1) Target predominately the farm economy and 2) have some sort of underlying mechanic that shows how the locusts multiply and spread.

If you want to keep the directional nature of locust swarm then fine, let's keep it. But at leats try to make it unique and thematically fitting. Let's say the locusts are still a small and slow moving wave, just like they currently are in the game. However there would be one tweak. As long as the locust swarm travels across farmland it doesn't die and also grows in diameter. This means that if you cast it from the right angle the swarm will be able to travel across huge distances of farmland and eventually reach massive proportions laying waste to the enemies food economy. I think this would be thematic and fun to use.

[Craz Zero]

I actually find Hekate's Tartarus gate to be a underwhelming spell

[Monokuma]

Originally posted by Craz Zero:

I actually find Hekate's Tartarus gate to be a underwhelming spell

Now that it also destroys structures where you cast it, it's at least guaranteed to destroy something without getting bonked off the face of the earth first

[gabrielps38]

Locust is godly, learn to use it.
Forest fire is the only really weak God power.

[Monokuma]

Originally posted by gabrielps38:

Locust is godly, learn to use it.
Forest fire is the only really weak God power.

Forest fire can really damage an econ by casting it on an active villager woodline. Line it up with a raid and you can kill quite a lot of villagers in an age where it really matters.

Edit: also helps cut through natural-walling so you can push your raid through somewhere that isn't as defended

[gabrielps38]

Yes, relatively weak and situational.
I didn`t mean it was useless, just weaker than everything else.

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by gabrielps38:

Locust is godly, learn to use it.
Forest fire is the only really weak God power.

Is this godly locust use in the room with us? But seriously, I've watched tons of professional matches in recent weeks. Not once have I seen locusts achieve anything significant. Aphrodites pigs turn games all the time. Never seen locusts do anything remotely like that.

[Stavrozium]

Originally posted by ShakingZealot:

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

I personally prefer the way it works now; versatile, but less powerful in general,
while you prefer a more powerful GP, that can only be used in a very specific situation.
We could keep talking about it, but i guess we should then start a new thread.. xD

Don't get me wrong, I am generally a fan of directional spells. However I think the spell "locusts" is not only weak but also fails thematically. In my point of view a spell named "locusts" needs to do two things. 1) Target predominately the farm economy and 2) have some sort of underlying mechanic that shows how the locusts multiply and spread.

If you want to keep the directional nature of locust swarm then fine, let's keep it. But at leats try to make it unique and thematically fitting. Let's say the locusts are still a small and slow moving wave, just like they currently are in the game. However there would be one tweak. As long as the locust swarm travels across farmland it doesn't die and also grows in diameter. This means that if you cast it from the right angle the swarm will be able to travel across huge distances of farmland and eventually reach massive proportions laying waste to the enemies food economy. I think this would be thematic and fun to use.

Well here is the thing: i am mostly thinking in terms of game balance,
while you seem to care more about it being thematic, and cool.
Which is fine, of course, but game balance is simply more important,
than the GP being thematic, and looking cool..
(sure, it can be both, but balance is still the most important)

If you would make it the way you described,
this would not only be incredibly difficult to implement,
but it would also be quite OP, and probably cause a ton of lag..
On smaller maps this may not be a problem, but it would on larger maps;
imagine an FFA game, where this GP hits multiple players...
(no other god power can effectively decimate the economy of multiple players => OP)
This would rather be an age 4 god power, similar to tornado, instead of an age 3 GP..
If it completely destroys 1 player's entire food economy, thats already quite OP..

In any case, instead of talking about how to change the Locust GP,
we should rather test out how it currently works, and build from there.
It simply hasnt been tested enough, imo, to determine how to change it.
(i.e. how can we try to rebalance it, if we dont really know how balanced it is, atm?)

In short: it could be really cool for custom maps/scenarios,
sure, but not for standard skirmish games..