Plenty Vault resource generation should decrease proportional to population

[Shaddap]

tl;dr plenty vault makes your economy around 10% more efficient, so you can take 10% more losses and still come out even compared to your opponent. This (to me) is acceptable balance compared to the other god power options. But two plenty vaults gives you huge a huge margin to be inefficient that it breaks the game balance. Plenty vaults resource generation should decrease as your pop increases, from 3 food/wood/gold per sec at 100 pop to 1 food/wood/gold per sec at 200 pop. This way it is a good remaxing tool but doesn't let you continue to build a ridiculous bank while you are trading more efficiently than your opponent.

Very rough math but there is so much variability that I can't make any super accurate calculations.

Plenty vault gives a flat 3 food/wood/gold per second to the player that controls it. That's 180 of each resource a minute. A villager on average harvests between resources 1-1.5 per second with upgrades. So a plenty vault gathers 2-3x faster than a worker and gathers all three resources (except favor) simultaneously, so for the equivalent production you would need between 6-9 workers working at maximum efficiency (which isnt possible given the time it takes to drop off resources).

Assuming ~100 villagers, this means that your economy is almost 10% more efficient per plenty vault in terms of production and pop usage. So you can take almost 10% more losses and still be even resource-wise and less of your pop is tied up in army.

The plenty vault was reasonably balanced when you could have just one of them, because you had to operate within that 10% bonus margin for it to be worth it. You had to still make effective armies with proper counters.

But now Greeks can turtle really hard on 2 plenty vaults, so that bonus margin of efficiency is twice as large, and you can just farm ridiculous amounts of favor and spam god powers. The plenty vault is not currently balanced having multiple of them.

[Eternal]

it just needs to cost lots more favor. Making second cast cost 250 or 300 favor would be fair with how much you have to invest into that spell. You also have to remember that it locks you out from another minor god that is often far better choice in many situations where a few extra ress and cheap blacksmith techs dont compare to instakill 250 wood medusa and 350 food AOE bombs that are chimeras not to mention you miss out on lightning storm or earthquake.

[Stavrozium]

i agree, plenty vaults should be nerfed a bit.
Maybe to 2.5 food/wood/gold per second.
(if this is still too much, they can be nerfed again later)

Keep in mind, that it is a age 4 god power,
so it really should be quite powerful,
because there are other age 4 god powers,
that can decimate entire bases/armies, in a few seconds.

Also, plenty vaults have already been severely nerfed,
compared to AoM EE: where they generated 15 food/wood/gold per second.
Then again, once you get a wonder, you can easily get more than 5 plenty vaults;
this is where they can become extremely OP, at the moment... (=> infinite resources..)

So yeah, like i said, i agree, that a small nerf is needed.
Making them cost more favor is also a good option for this.

[Nito]

You understand that it is a increasing price of 200 favor each vault and to reduce that you need a wonder sincerely if you allowed the enemy to make 3 or more vault of plenty you derserve to suffer for it

Because that is a 4 age + wonder + not making a army to gather that amount for various minutes

[Vivianite]

2 plenty vaults? how slow are you?

[Shaddap]

Originally posted by Vivianite:

2 plenty vaults? how slow are you?

I don't play greek, I play egyptian, and if you aren't pressuring a greek enough to stop them from getting 2 vaults you've already lost. (On most 1v1 maps, if youre playing a large 3v3 or something then I guess more vaults is more common)

[Kimochi]

This is the most idiotic take i've ever seen. Vault are only helpful when you play with bot. Try to make 2 vault in ranked lmao

[Cacomistle]

Then plenty vaults would be horrible. 3res/s would inarguably be the worst age 4 god power in the game. And its not like its a good tempo god power, so using it for the period before you're 200 pop would also be bad.

The only thing that makes getting 2 plenty vaults better than 2 earthquakes or 2 lightning storms is the fact that plenty vault costs 200 to recast, and earthquake/lightning cost 350. 200 is actually affordable in some instances, 350+ is not.

If plenty vault costed 350 to cast a second time, you'd probably rarely see 2nd plenty vaults.

[Shaddap]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Then plenty vaults would be horrible.

The only thing that makes getting 2 plenty vaults better than 2 earthquakes or 2 lightning storms is the fact that plenty vault costs 200 to recast, and earthquake/lightning cost 350. 200 is actually affordable in some instances, 350+ is not.

If plenty vault costed 350 to cast a second time, you'd probably rarely see 2nd plenty vaults.

I dunno if you're responding to my post or other suggestions, but I agree that increasing favor cost isn't the way to go. I'm suggesting that plenty vaults give 180 of each resource a minute at 100 pop and 60 at 200 pop and above. That way you retain the efficiency bonus when building and remaxing but you don't build a bank as quickly just sitting at max pop.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Shaddap:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Then plenty vaults would be horrible.

The only thing that makes getting 2 plenty vaults better than 2 earthquakes or 2 lightning storms is the fact that plenty vault costs 200 to recast, and earthquake/lightning cost 350. 200 is actually affordable in some instances, 350+ is not.

If plenty vault costed 350 to cast a second time, you'd probably rarely see 2nd plenty vaults.

I dunno if you're responding to my post or other suggestions, but I agree that increasing favor cost isn't the way to go. I'm suggesting that plenty vaults give 180 of each resource a minute at 100 pop and 60 at 200 pop and above. That way you retain the efficiency bonus when building and remaxing but you don't build a bank as quickly just sitting at max pop.

No you don't agree. I said the opposite of this. Plenty vault is completely and utterly worthless if your suggestion goes through. That is, to be clear, something I view as bad. If it gives 60res/m, vault is dead. Its so obviously dead that I'm confused why you would suggest this.

I am suggesting that increasing the favor cost is the way to go (if we assume its even a problem as is). Its an outlier in terms of recast cost. That is why it's better to recast than other god powers. If we assume that's a problem, then the simplest solution is to simply not make it more efficient to recast than other age 4 god powers.

[Shaddap]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by Shaddap:

I dunno if you're responding to my post or other suggestions, but I agree that increasing favor cost isn't the way to go. I'm suggesting that plenty vaults give 180 of each resource a minute at 100 pop and 60 at 200 pop and above. That way you retain the efficiency bonus when building and remaxing but you don't build a bank as quickly just sitting at max pop.

No you don't agree. I said the opposite of this. Plenty vault is completely and utterly worthless if your suggestion goes through. That is, to be clear, something I view as bad. If it gives 60res/m, vault is dead. Its so obviously dead that I'm confused why you would suggest this.

I am suggesting that increasing the favor cost is the way to go (if we assume its even a problem as is). Its an outlier in terms of recast cost. That is why is better to recast than other god powers. If we assume that's a problem, then the simplest solution is to simply not make it more efficient to recast than other age 4 god powers.

ah sorry, misread. Just to clarify, I'm assuming higher level macro play because that's the only situation where plenty vault is worth taking, and that involves large armies (50+ pop) being traded out to exhaust the opponent economically. The idea is that with one plenty vault you get the 10% bonus after you've lost most your units either by losing a battle or achieving more map control/destroying production. Then when you're maxed out it tapers off. Maybe 60/min is too low and the math could be adjusted, but the cost of 200 favor for a 20% more efficient economy is not within the margins of game balance. The plenty vault should be an economic security tool that gives you an advantage when you're on the back foot militarily, it shouldn't start a timer before trading armies becomes unfeasible for the opponent.

I'd like to know your thoughts on if plenty vault is balanced right now and why.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Shaddap:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

No you don't agree. I said the opposite of this. Plenty vault is completely and utterly worthless if your suggestion goes through. That is, to be clear, something I view as bad. If it gives 60res/m, vault is dead. Its so obviously dead that I'm confused why you would suggest this.

I am suggesting that increasing the favor cost is the way to go (if we assume its even a problem as is). Its an outlier in terms of recast cost. That is why is better to recast than other god powers. If we assume that's a problem, then the simplest solution is to simply not make it more efficient to recast than other age 4 god powers.

ah sorry, misread. Just to clarify, I'm assuming higher level macro play because that's the only situation where plenty vault is worth taking, and that involves large armies (50+ pop) being traded out to exhaust the opponent economically. The idea is that with one plenty vault you get the 10% bonus after you've lost most your units either by losing a battle or achieving more map control/destroying production. Then when you're maxed out it tapers off. Maybe 60/min is too low and the math could be adjusted, but the cost of 200 favor for a 20% more efficient economy is not within the margins of game balance. The plenty vault should be an economic security tool that gives you an advantage when you're on the back foot militarily, it shouldn't start a timer before trading armies becomes unfeasible for the opponent.

I'd like to know your thoughts on if plenty vault is balanced right now and why.

If anything, I think plenty vault is on the weaker side. A lot of the other age 4 god powers got buffed and are kind insane now. Earthquake for instance doesn't have a damage maximum anymore so its basically guaranteed to destroy tcs and you can't play around it by placing more buildings anymore, and lightning storm just seems to kill way more units than it used to (plus armies are bigger so there's more units to kill), probably also cause of the damage cap removal.

Plenty vault on the other hand is effectively weaker than previous balance even without considering so many other age 4 god powers getting buffed, because higher pop means more vills (and therefore the plenty vault is a smaller percentage economy increase).

Its definitely not op if you have only 1 of them. So I don't see any reason why 1 plenty vault should be nerfed.

But, I'd like to use your opinion. Like you said, 1 plenty vault is balanced. But two plenty vaults gives you huge a huge margin to be inefficient that it breaks the game balance. So, isn't the problem, based on your argument, that you can get 2 plenty vaults in the first place? 2 earthquakes is game breaking too btw, its just that its not reasonable to cast twice (and honestly I'm not sure plenty vault is either).

I think your idea of plenty vault is just literally a different god power. You're looking for something like dwarven gold mine. Plenty vault is always going to be a "puts the opponent on a timer" sort of god power, because that's what happens when one player chooses a tempo based option (basically all the other god powers) and the other chooses a long term option.

If you don't want that, then plenty vault needs to expire, because the alternative option to make it not put the opponent on the timer is what you have suggested... which is to make it so bad the opponent doesn't need to care about its existence. You're not solving the timer issue design-wise, you're just deleting plenty vault from the game. But personally, I don't see a problem with a "puts the opponent on a timer" type god power. If one player for instance uses their god power to secure a tc advantage the 50 pop advantage is generally going to be more significant than the plenty vault.

[nate_e]

Originally posted by Stavrozium:

i agree, plenty vaults should be nerfed a bit.
Also, plenty vaults have already been severely nerfed,
compared to AoM EE: where they generated 15 food/wood/gold per second.

Woah! In EE they generated 15 fwg every 5 sec, so it was still 3 each/sec, but you had to wait for that 5 sec interval to happen to get any res.

To the topic post: It's an Age4 GP that doesn't dish out massive damage so don't make it useless! If Plenty's need a nerf, just increase the Favor cost.

[Bunnuh'Bun]

9 population freed up. take it or leave it.

[Overt Operations Specialist]

They would've wrecked you faster with Hera and Artemis.