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I feel like I'm itching for 4th major gods more than I am for the new pantheons
-Legions of Atlantis - Legio (simpler names have more impact, and we all know Atlanteans are Romans)
-Golden Age should actually be a Farming upgrade, as Golden Age Humanity did nothing but feasting, and preparing for feasts. Heroics came with (mythological) Iron Age Humanity.
-Progenitor of Humanity completely overrides Frontline Heroics from Oceanus, and having 2 upgrades to diminish costs for the same thing, is a bit much.
-Wrath of the Titans - Clash of the Titans (gotta have the movie reference).
Also this is like a better version of Norse Flaming Weapons, so not very well thought out. Maybe would be better if it gave every unit an exta X1 vs Myth Units and X3 vs Titans. That way it would be an anti-myth GP, not a better Flaming Weapons.
-Mother of Oceanids should not buff Nereids, Nereids already have their own buff upgrade from Theia, just liek every other Water Myth Unit gets it's own buffing god, not many gods having specific upgrades for it.
-Guiding Currents is too similar to the Egyptians Funeral Barge, It should jsut upgrade Bireme Speed.
-Inner Focus should make Oracles LoS expand twice as fast, not be constant and full upon creation, as that will give Atlanteans OP scouting and Favour generation.
the atlantians aren't just romans, they're an amalgamation of a bunch of different civs
I mostly agree with what is said here, except maybe for Golden Age and Wrath of the Titans.
- A farming upgrade available only in Age IV doesn't make much sense imo, instead it could be an upgrade that consistently boosts gold gains from market.
- As for Wrath of Titans I feel like (besides Chaos) Atlanteans lack strong impact god powers in mid game so I'm not against a flaming weapon like power BUT it must be balanced accordingly. Would be much more reasonable if it was a target AoE power.
That is the mythology of it.
From a lore perspective yes but from a gameplay perspective a food upgrade is clearly not what you need most in Mythic age, a more viable compromise could be making it a market upgrade that includes all resources.
This is way too strong, static favor cost at such low price for such a strong godpower isn't acceptable, +1K HP is also way too much if we remember fortifications deal much more damage.
This goes against the oracle concept, you want to have many scouts that you have to micro to protect and exploit to their full potential. With such upgrade you don't even need to micro oracles or to have many of them.
It'd also mean oracles always generate favor at max rate even when moving which is way too strong.
A more reasonable approach would be to reimplement the focus unique upgrade from OG's Kronos.
30% is overkill considering converting a group of archer units (except Cheiro) has less impact on the resource pool than converting a same number group of infantrymen, since wood is very available.
Why not for the classical age availability. However focused fire passive is (once again) too strong, you have to keep in mind arcii have less base damage than toxotes for instance, yet they have more range, LOS and a faster reload time. They are kiting archers.
With Pontus bonuses and such upgrade (+line upgrade ?) they'd absolutely slaughter any infantry force as soon as age 2.
Also the bonus decreasing rate is too slow, it shouldn't be slower to decrease than it takes time to stack up otherwise it's too much damage for too long.
1) The Red Coral upgrade is meant to be expensive, I imagine it would cost something like 200 Wood and 20 Favor. I agree that 15 Favor recast cost might be a bit too low though.
That said, Coral Reef and its upgrade is meant to be something that defines Pontus' playstyle, like Set's free Vision god power upgrade which is the best scouting tool in the game and can be used in Mythic Age cast a Tornado or Meteor Strike god power directly onto the enemy base whenever you want to. Pontus would be able to use the Coral Reef power to stall the enemy somewhat.
And 1000 Temporary HP might be too much, but with Retold buildings being made of paper, it really needs to be a significant bonus to be impactful. Maybe have the Bonus HP scale by Age instead? Something like 250 bonus HP per each Age, up to 1250 HP in Wonder Age?
The idea also was that the Coral Reef cooldown would be quite long even after the upgrade, so you really need to think about when to use it.
As for Fortifications, those have really low damage right now (Towers are almost universally agreed to be almost useless in their current state), so the bonus attack combined with Coral Reef would at best turn them to "somewhat useable", which is intentional.
2) I was thinking about the Inner Focus upgrade a lot in particular. It was meant to encourage using Oracles as actual scouts past the endgame instead of simply moving them to a corner and leaving them there. That said, I agree that it might be overpowered.
So, how about this change:
Inner Focus
Oracles move faster (+0.4 Movement Speed), lowers the rate at which their Line of Sight decreases when moving by 25% and increases the rate at which it expands when stationary by 50%.
3) I'm not sure I agree about wood being plentiful enough to be a factor. Early game, you tend to use it on a ton of buildings like manors and barracks, so if you turn some Turma into Heroes, that slows you down. But it could be changed to be more like Poseidon's Secret:
Archery Competitions
Reduces the cost of training Ranged Soldiers as well as the cost of turning them into heroes by 10%.
4) I thought Enryo's Bow of Horrors to give Toxotes 15% Attack when in actuality it's 10%. So 30% max is overtuned, yes.
How about this change:
Focused Fire
Arcus can be trained in the Classical Age and they gain the Focused Fire ability.
Focused Fire ability increases the Attack Speed of Arcus by 2% for each second while attacking, up to 20%. When not attacking, the Bonus is decreased by 4% each second.
Arcii would thus gain 20% faster attack speed after 10 seconds of non-stop attacking and the bonus would disappear quickly after combat is over. The idea is that it boosts Arcii in protracted angagements.
Maybe the Attack Speed increase could be reduced to 1% per second.
Thanks for your feedback!
1) Yeah, I agree, that's a better name! I went with more generic names for everything to get across the intent and flavor more clearly.
2) I don't think that a farming upgrade would be very thematic for Iapetus and I'm not sure how useful it would be in Mythic Age. How about this change:
Golden Age
Oracles also generate some Food, Wood and Gold in addition to Favor (depends on Line of Sight as Favor does).
3) Progenitors of Mankind doesn't override Frontline Heroics at all, since Frontline Heroics upgrade only reduces Food and Gold cost of turning Infantry to Heroes (as is written in the extended tooltip). Favor cost is equal to the amout of Population Space the unit takes up, so a Murmillo takes up 2 Population Space and costs 2 Favor to turn into a hero, while Destroyer takes up 3 Population Space thus costs 3 Favor. Frontline Heroics doesn't affect this at all.
The only upgrade that affects hero Favor cost is Sons of the Sun from Hyperion that removes the Favor cost from Hero Oracles (because it makes them trainable directly from the Temple).
And by lategame, the primary bottleneck to making a significant amount of Atlantean heroes isn't the basic resources, it's Favor, so I feel that a Mythic Age Atlantean god focused primarily on Heroes would be the one to help with that.
That said, maybe eliminating the Favor cost outright would be too strong, so maybe it could just reduce the Favor cost by 1 per hero? Maybe then Progenitors of Mankind could be changed to this:
Progenitors of Mankind (Expensive upgrade)
Heroes gain +20% Attack, deal +1 Divine damage and the Favor cost of turning units to heroes is reduced by 1.
4) Wrath of the Titans was originally meant to be called Titanomarchy, but then I remembered that name was unfortunately already used for the Centimanus upgrade.
The thought process behind this particular God Power is the following: Iapetus is one of the most prominent titans to be locked in Tartarus, being directly referenced as being there right next to Kronos. So, when the player would cast this God Power, the whole map would gain a red tint, as the rage of all the titans stuck in Tartarus would empower player's units. To differentiate it from Burning Weapons, maybe it could make your military units periodically spawn some Tartarus Rifts near them that dealt damage to enemy units and buildings. Basically, when the player used this God power, it should feel like the start of some apocalyptic final battle. Basically a cooler version of the Eclipse god power.
5) Regarding Mother of Oceanids affecting Nereids too, I thought that Tethys should have something for Nereids and there's already a precedent with Dionysus having an upgrade that buffs both Hydra and Scylla and Hel having an upgrade that buffs all Giants, who all have their own upgrades with their respective gods. Thought it would be interesting to have Theia who makes Nereids vastly faster and halves the cooldown on their super strong special ability and Tethys who makes Nereids somewhat more durable. That said, it could be transformed to a Naiad exclusive upgrade that also lowers the cooldown of their Geysir ability.
I still think that Pontus should have access to some boosted Nereids though. Maybe I should replace Hyperion with Theia as the other possible Heroic Age god? The main reason I picked Hyperion was because I thought he would synergize well with Phoebe and also because of Heroic Renewal, which could be combined with Iapetus to have a great hero army.
Theia would probably fit better than Hyperion though.
6) Regarding Guiding Currents, I think you meant that it's similar to the Solar Barque upgrade and I agree, I forgot that one existed. How about this change:
Guiding Currents
Movement Speed of your ships is increased by 10%.
This would also boost Tethys' economy focus a bit by also affecting Fishing Ships.
7) Yeah, I agree. Here's the changed version:
Inner Focus
Oracles move faster (+0.4 Movement Speed), lowers the rate at which their Line of Sight decreases when moving by 25% and increases the rate at which it expands when stationary by 50%.
Flaming Weapons isn't a targeted AoE power, it doubles the attack of all the player's human soldiers and heroes on the map, no matter where they are and it's a Heroic Age power.
Eclipse isn't a targeted AoE power either, it massively boosts all of the player's Myth Units on the map and it's a Classical Age power.
Wrath of the Titans would be a Mythic Age power, so I don't think having it affect all of the player's military units on the map would be too strong. Wrath of the Titans is supposed to be a god power that makes the player feel like some apocalyptic final battle just started in the game, so its impact and visuals would need to have some suitable epicness to it.
I kinda disagree with the choice of focus because it overlaps like crazy with Hades, even worse is that more damage on archers was his old bonus from the OG game, would be kinda bad to change this bonus for him then bring it back for someone else. Also Atlanteans god don't really do stacking like say Greeks: note how Kronos, the myth unit major god, doesn't have access to Hekate, or how Gaia who was designed around buildings doesn't have mirror towers. I kinda agree with making walls upgrades cheaper. I also find it weird that he doesn't really have some kind of water bonus. How about making flood pillars buildable by fishing ships and able to be placed anywhere on water?
Phoebe:
On one hand I kinda like this GP idea, on the other one Atlanteans already have so much LoS bonuses (4 gods with sight tech/bonuses!!!!) Moira special also kinda overlaps with caladrias slightly. I also think bringing arcus to age 2 is a big step up compared to what Ares/Ullr do, as their units are more situational and aren't as spammable as arcus are. It's especially unfair against Egyptians because slingers are massively outranged.
Tethys:
As I understand it this GP is very close to Aegir's tempest or is a mini-implode. As of rn I don't have an idea to replace it sry.
The Naiad is thematically a nereid that walks, and it's a slightly different satyr so you actually don't haved a lot of MU diversity with this idea in age 3 I feel. Maybe replace it with an amphibious MU?
I'm also not fan of a regen tech for her myth units because it's Hekate bis. It could be a flood pillar upgrade instead.
+2 ranged and +10%dmg on 3 different archers is kinda crazy I think it puts all existing archers techs to shame.
Iapetus:
His theme kinda overlaps with Vidar but I find him kinda cool so he gets a pass lol.
His GP is probably more balanced than flaming weapons lol
His myth unit looks cool, but its ability kinda puts the medusa to shame.
I like the oracle tech but I'm afraid progenitor of mankind (is it just me or this name kinda goes hard?) will be broken in late game scenarios, because that's potentially a lot of stats for your whole army. Especially with all the techs and bonuses you want to give Pontus' archers, an army of hero arcus would be literally immune to every unit in the game, and would only be killable by a whole team using age 4 god powers on them all at once. Toadd insult to injury it can also be used to make murmillos broken if you choose Oceanus instead. Tbh I don't have an idea to make it balanced and Atlanteans already have two hero themed minor gods (4 if you count Oceanus and Theia as well) and they kinda used up all the low impact effects. You could give him a defensive tech, like what if towers and gate boost nearby human soldiers, that would fit both Iapetus' and Pontus' theme.
The new minor gods are thematically good, Oceanus is an obvious choice, I don't have much of an opinion on having Hyperion and Helios available.
Thanks for your feedback!
1) Hades buffs the Range of Defensive Fortifications and Ranged Soldiers, spawns Shades at unit death, boosts Myth Unit HP by 15% and researches Ballistics and Burning Pitch for free. I think there's enough difference between Retold Hades and this Pontus concept. Hades is also a Greek Major God, while Pontus would be Atlantean, so that's honestly a big enough difference between them anyway.
That said, having a straight up Attack bonus to Ranged soldiers might be too straightforward for the way Retold does the Atlantean bonuses. So maybe this bonus instead:
- Defensive Fortifications attack +15% faster and increase Attack of friendly units in a small radius around them by 10%.
This bonus would affect Town Centers, Palaces, Towers, Mirror Towers (if going with Helios) and Flood Pillars.
That said, it might be too similar to Gaia.
2) None of the Major Gods really have a Water Bonus, that's generally relegated to Heroic Age minor gods. The closest thing is Poseidon's respawning Hippocampus, but that's just a scout with no attack that's only limited to water, so it's not very impactful. Flood Pillars being buildable on water is an interesting idea, but it could also make Pontus overpowered on Water Maps.
If Pontus really needs a Water Map bonus, then maybe he could also give Docks a weak ranged attack (equivalent to a Watch Tower).
1) Slingers have 17 range. Cheiroballista has 20 range since Classical Age, counters both spearmen and axemen with a massive bonus, can be turned into a hero to counter myth units too and it doesn't seem to cause many problems anyway. I don't think having Arcus with 20 range in Classical would be that big of a deal if the tech would be a suitably big investment. But if it would, then Arcii could just have their Range nerfed to 18 in Classical and have it boosted to 20 once you reach Heroic Age. AoE 4 does similar things with their Early versions of units.
3) Oranos gives +4 LoS to all units.
Atlas gives +5 LoS to Argus myth unit only.
Leto gives +10% Line of Sight to Oracles only.
What's the fourth one?
The original game also had Eyes of Atlas and Lemurian Descendants, but those were removed.
I don't think there's any harm in reinforcing the Atlantean niche of being good at scounting with a God Power like that. Maybe the duration could be nerfed to 25 seconds or something like that.
4) I don't think Moirai are similar to Caladrias at all. Caladria is a flying myth unit that can either heal one friendly unit or reduce movement speed of one enemy unit for as long as it focuses on it. Moirai just has a special attack that creates a small area that buffs Attack of friendly units and debuffs Attack enemy units. The most similar myth unit to them is probably Einheri.
5) Whirlpool would be sort of similar to Implode, yes.
Basically, it would summon a Whirlpool that would start rapidly expanding and any unit that would be caught by it would vanish from the map until the God Power ends, at which point the units would reappear damaged where the Whirlpools center used to be.
Whirlpool could also deal some slight damage to buildings in its radius, but it's basically meant to be an area denial power to secure a chokepoint.
6) I mean, they are both nymphs and Atlanteans already also have a Dryad and a Lampad, so why not one more? Nereid rides a shark, is a water unit, is very fast and attacks in melee. Naiad would have a range comparable to a Fire Giant, have high survivability for a ranged unit, throw some enchanted water missiles at enemies and have a ranged special ability that does some damage, but primarily breaks up bunched up units (great against archer deathballs in particular). I think there's enough uniqueness there, even when compared to Satyr, who is a more straight up offensive unit that rewards sniping enemy armies with their highly damaging special ability.
As for choosing between two ranged myth units in Heroic Age... well, having access to many different ranged myth units would give Pontus some kind of niche. And Hades has access to Athena and Ares in Classical Age, which means either Minotaur or a Cyclops and Minotaur is basically a weaker and cheaper version of a Cyclops, so, I think that Naiad and Satyr would differ significantly more than those two. But Hyperion could always be changed for Theia.
And if you have a better idea as to what Tethys' myth unit could be, then I'd welcome it.
7) I mean, it's only for a specific myth unit and, say, Behemoth already has regeneration by default, but it could be changed to instead buff the Geysir special ability.
And I don't think that a Flood Pillar specific upgrade is really possible as a minor god tech, since Minor Gods are meant to be generic enough to be reused for other Major Gods if need be. Not even Freyr's minor gods affect anything specific to Freyr only.
8) I don't think Iapetus' theme really overlaps with Vidar anymore than, say, Athena's theme overlaps with Forseti. Both Athena and Forseti have a Healing God Power and are focused on infantry in different ways. They are also minor gods for different civilizations. Just like Iapetus and Vidar would be.
9) Catoblepas wouldn't be similar to Medusa all that much besides both petrifying units. It's more like a stronger version of Nemean Lion, except the AoE radius would be a lot smaller (I see it having a similar AoE to Argus' acid blob) and the damage of Catoblepas' special attack would be lower. The primary benefit of said special ability would be that it effectively stuns a few units at once for a few seconds. Catoblepas' role would be a tanky unit that can serve as a meatshield for the rest of your army. Sort of like a more agressive version of a Rock Giant.
Catoblepas would have its special ability on a long cooldown. Upgraded Medusa has it on 15 seconds cooldown, Catoblepas would have it on a 30 seconds cooldown.
Medusa also does the Petrify ability at 21 range, it petrifies units for 8 seconds and eliminates most units outright and those that survive are heavily damaged. Catoblepas wouldn't deal that much damage with its ability, Argus would be better at actual AoE damage.
10) Monstrous Rage and Celerity give +25% attack speed and +15% movement speed to all of your myth units. Progenitors of Mankind would be similarly expensive. And turning your whole army into heroes is a really big investment. Even with Progenitors of Mankind, heroes would still cost a lot of resources, including Favor that could be used for God Powers or Myth Units. It could only really be too strong in super lategame when you can make a whole hero army, but at that point, Poseidon dominates with Tracian Horses Hetairoi.
If it's still too strong, then how about this weaker version:
Progenitors of Mankind
Heroes gain +15% Attack, deal +0.5 Divine damage and the Favor cost to turn units to heroes is reduced by 1.
2) That's true, however the Poseidon bonus was designed when you could only make arrow ships in age 2 and fish was the best food in the game, so if they made a true water god it would break water maps. In Retold fish is worse and you can make siege ships in age 2 to counter the pillars so I feel like there is room for this idea.
1bis) Cheiroballistas are slow, innacurate and expensive, they are kinda bad actually. Nerfed arcus would be an acceptable compromise if you really insist to focus on arcus, but it's still kinda unfair compared to the other options, and I feel like it's a wasted opportunity for a cheiroballista tech. They only have volcanic forge (doesn't really matter for them) and petrified wood (age 4!!!!) as myth techs so they could use one more.
3)Oups I thought Theia improved oracle LoS but that's actually just their favour gen. There is probably room for this power then.
4)I should have said I just meant the debuff part. Otherwise I think moirai are a good idea because Atlanteans don't have ranged MUs in age 2 so they bring something new to the table.
6) Thinking about it more, I suppose having many nymphs is a bit like Norse having 4 kinds of giants. That being said I still think making naiads amphibious would help them be different from satyr, even if they are still ranged. We know for sure that the Chinese will get at least one amphibious MU so that could be further inspiration once they are released.
7) When I had this idea, I had Hera's tech that spawns myrmydons in mind. Unless they decide that Greek unique units should no longer be unique it means Hera can't be given to a potential new Greek god (good thing if you ask me, I was slightly disappointed when they gave Hel to Freyr, even if I understand it was to boost rock giants/because Tyr/Baldr would overlap somewhat with Vidar).
8) Probably correct to think about it this way
9) Now I find the catoblepas even cooler lol
10) Monstruous rage and celerity are kept in check by the favour bottleneck that is greater than that of heroes, the fact all myth units have the same hard counters, and they don't give divine damage at all. If anything if this tech didn't give divine damage but removed the favour cost it might be easier to keep below hetairoi spam level. I say all that because divine damage really can change a unit especially ranged ones. When they made electrum bullets give +1 damage to slingers it became a unit you can spam all game long, which says a lot since they have bad damage otherwise. You are also right that the situation I describe is not happening in most games, but there are situations where it will be reachable semi consistently and people won't like it. Like half the topics on this forum are about fimbulwinter spam, despite the fact it's "only" achievable in big teamgames/FFA, ruining a certain category of game modes is enough to cause issues, so better think about these before hand.