Civs are blantely losing uniqueness among human units.

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Hirdman: Counter-cavalry unit, that can be trained at the Longhouse.
Effectively the same as Katapeltes from Atlanteans
like almost 1 to 1 in stats with very few differences between the two.

It's not just a standard between anti-cav unit given spearmen do not work the same as these two.

[Devang]

Katapeltes - 60 Food 35 Gold / 115 HP

Hirdman - 35 Food 45 Gold / 85 HP

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Originally posted by Devang:

Katapeltes - 60 Food 35 Gold / 115 HP

Hirdman - 35 Food 45 Gold / 85 HP

My bad hirdmans are better

[Devang]

Katapeltes give you +30 HP for +15 resources

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Originally posted by Devang:

Katapeltes give you +30 HP for +15 resources

Yes but more food cost means later age up, which is when you're building these units mainly.

[Devang]

Different roles as well. In the sense that they're used in different ways by either civ. Katapeltes substitute for Murmillos against Cavalry heavy armies

Hirdmen function more like Pikemen in AoE2 w.r.t. Knight vs. Knight fights, in the sense you can add a few of them in with your Cavalry units to break Cavalry vs. Cavalry stalemates. I'm talking about Odin vs. Thor matches which devolve into Raiding Cavalry vs. Raiding Cavalry, and the bigger blob wins. Also Odin/Thor vs. Greeks which also end up being RC vs. Hippikons many times

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Originally posted by Devang:

Different roles as well. In the sense that they're used in different ways by either civ. Katapeltes substitute for Murmillos against Cavalry heavy armies

Hirdmen function more like Pikemen in AoE2 w.r.t. Knight vs. Knight fights, in the sense you can add a few of them in with your Cavalry units to break Cavalry vs. Cavalry stalemates. I'm talking about Odin vs. Thor matches which devolve into Raiding Cavalry vs. Raiding Cavalry, and the bigger blob wins. Also Odin/Thor vs. Greeks which also end up being RC vs. Hippikons many times

They could of easily made them function differently, compared spearman, who are not nearly as similar as these two

[IEatCats]

The triangle was first introduced in this game

Infantry > cavalry
Cavalry > archers
Archers > infantry

Soft counters exist: eg Egyptian Spearmen and Huskarls are fast enough to reach archers (Huskarls also get large amounts of pierce armour)

Atlanteans Murmillos are general purpose and a little cheaper than Katapeltes. They should beat earlier age cavalry and infantry not specialised for AI. Not sure if new Norse berserks work the same way

Note that Atlanteans have to convert units to a hero whereas the other civs need to train a new hero unit

Based on current info the Hirdman has a larger bonus to cav (4x) vs Katapeltes (3x)

[R for Reload]

Originally posted by IEatCats:

The triangle was first introduced in this game

Infantry > cavalry
Cavalry > archers
Archers > infantry

Soft counters exist: eg Egyptian Spearmen and Huskarls are fast enough to reach archers (Huskarls also get large amounts of pierce armour)

Atlanteans Murmillos are general purpose and a little cheaper than Katapeltes. They should beat earlier age cavalry and infantry not specialised for AI. Not sure if new Norse berserks work the same way

Note that Atlanteans have to convert units to a hero whereas the other civs need to train a new hero unit

Based on current info the Hirdman has a larger bonus to cav (4x) vs Katapeltes (3x)

I'm pretty sure Katapeltes are 4x on retold.

[Devang]

There's also a general shift away from locking hard counter units behind Minor Gods

Eggy Spearmen had their anti-cavalry bonus increased from +10% to +75% by default. So Isis' only option against super heavy cavalry (Jarls & War Elephants) isn't just defaulting to Osiris Camels & Mummies

Likewise, Odin previously had zero non-Myth options against the super heavy cavalry, lacking Bragi's Swine Array

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Originally posted by Devang:

There's also a general shift away from locking hard counter units behind Minor Gods

Eggy Spearmen had their anti-cavalry bonus increased from +10% to +75% by default. So Isis' only option against super heavy cavalry (Jarls & War Elephants) isn't just defaulting to Osiris Camels & Mummies

Likewise, Odin previously had zero non-Myth options against the super heavy cavalry, lacking Bragi's Swine Array

My main issue isn't the balance Its how close these units are.
like I said they are pretty much the same
Which isn't even how much standard units work.

reminds me the norse archers from EE.

[Devang]

They're different enough for me

Katapeltes - requires a different building than its main-line counter-part (Murmillo) / Hirdman - Shares the same building as its main-line counter-part (Ulfsark)

Different cost profiles & different HP with one being significantly tankier than the other

Different roles within the civ's army composition

The difference between the two units is more than the difference between Hoplites & Murmillo

[IEatCats]

Originally posted by Devang:

There's also a general shift away from locking hard counter units behind Minor Gods

Eggy Spearmen had their anti-cavalry bonus increased from +10% to +75% by default. So Isis' only option against super heavy cavalry (Jarls & War Elephants) isn't just defaulting to Osiris Camels & Mummies

Likewise, Odin previously had zero non-Myth options against the super heavy cavalry, lacking Bragi's Swine Array

None of the minor gods give any Human units, Poseidon a major god is the only one who has a special water Hero that no one else gets, however everyone can get Hammer ships which are good against myth units. Each of the Greek majors have their own special human unit but they don't really hard counter anything

The increases still don't make them hard counters compared to actual hard counters

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Originally posted by Devang:

They're different enough for me

Katapeltes - requires a different building than its main-line counter-part (Murmillo) / Hirdman - Shares the same building as its main-line counter-part (Ulfsark)

Different cost profiles & different HP with one being significantly tankier than the other

Different roles within the civ's army composition

The difference between the two units is more than the difference between Hoplites & Murmillo

beserkers are also very similiar to murmillios and hoplites only eggys have different standard infantry.