war battles in Suikoden II

[Sierra]

I really don't like the war battles in Suikoden II. I felt that way back then on PSX when I was way younger but now those battles leave such a bitter taste in my mouth.
I like them a lot storywise but other than that they just fool you in thinking you have any options or choices. if the plot does not want you to win a certain battle or even only small skirmishes within those battles, you just lose them. No matter how you arrange your troops, those numbers shown by the units (enemies and allies) don't seem to reflect anything.
At least that's true for the majority of the battles and especially in early to mid game.
It gets better at the end of the game but overall I like the rock-paper-scissor system from Suikoden a lot more.

How do you guys see that? Am I too harsh or even wrong about that?

[Criosphinx]

Escrito originalmente por Tenshu:

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

...Oh joy, here comes the semantics crew~ You guys are always my favorite. c:

Are you SERIOUSLY gonna be arguing whether or not there's any actual meaning or choice in the S2 war battles? Here's a step-by-step for you to understand if you're 5:

You get into a war battle. Apple/Shu relays the objective, usually to defeat an enemy unit OR hold off. You go battling. The RNG kicks in on the unit you need to defeat and you keep slaving away trying to defeat them. Either lose your own units or you're at a stalemate. The battle ALWAYS ENDS AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TURNS. So you can do nothing and wait it out, the battle will timeout. You can fight enemies, the battle will timeout. You can run around the entire map juking or luring enemies, the battle will timeout. It has a SCRIPTED timing that makes the battle end, it doesn't go on forever until you HAVE TO complete the objective of defeating a specific unit, it will still end even if the main unit you need to defeat is acting invincible. So the war battles only give you an illusion of choice because they all have an expiration date except Luca where you HAVE to damage him otherwise the battle lasts forever. And then the 2 (+1) battles where you just need a single unit to reach the city. It's not necessarily scripted, but it's still an illusion of choice since you don't need more than 1 unit that reaches the city.

And I don't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ about other games, we're talking S2 war battles here.

I know you want to ride S2's rod real hard but the citing of other games was necessary because you don't know what scripted means in regards to the Ridley fight. Putting an x amount of turns to pass before a success OR fail can occur doesn't mean it's scripted, that is a dumb take. Viktor's Fort for example yes is scripted, you can't win. Even if you gave yourself max attack/defense it still results in you losing, that's a scripted fight. Someone's telling you you don't know what scripted means, you respond trying to explain the fight is scripted incorrectly and now you pivot to saying we're just arguing semantics? C'mon mayne...

And I know you wanna be some sort of self-proclaimed guru here since you seem to be OBLIGATED to reply to every single thread and be a smartass, but my point still stands that all the battles have a SET condition that occurs regardless of what you ultimately do in them. Either it's a Defeat, Retreat or Victory ending once a certain amount of turns passes. You don't need to do a thing, even losing most of your units in the process. The thing with the Ridley battle is in 90% of cases you're SUPPOSED to lose him. If you setup everything perfectly with unit management with cavalry + Chaco, have RNG blessing on your side so Ridley takes no damage AND crits most of the units surrounding him, AND survive long enough until SCRIPTED LUCA shows up, YES you can save him but the chances are miniscule. For all intents and purposes, that is a losing battle.

[Raos]

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

...Oh joy, here comes the semantics crew~ You guys are always my favorite. c:

I was very specific with my wording for a reason. The fact i have to resort to arguing "semantics" is because you didn't understand what i said to begin with. I made a very innocuous specifically worded post, that you didn't have to reply to. It's rather rich to try and claim the high ground when you started the whole issue lol.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

Are you SERIOUSLY gonna be arguing whether or not there's any actual meaning or choice in the S2 war battles?

I have pointed out a specific example where you did indeed have choice and you still claimed it was scripted. I don't follow your "logic" here at all. The outcome of said battle (the Ridley example) completely changes depending on your actions. You are able to win a battle the game expects you to lose, and the game actually adapts to you doing this. How is that not choice?

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

Here's a step-by-step for you to understand if you're 5:

already resorting to insults because you have no real arugment

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

You get into a war battle. Apple/Shu relays the objective, usually to defeat an enemy unit OR hold off. You go battling. The RNG kicks in on the unit you need to defeat and you keep slaving away trying to defeat them. Either lose your own units or you're at a stalemate. The battle ALWAYS ENDS AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TURNS. So you can do nothing and wait it out, the battle will timeout. You can fight enemies, the battle will timeout. You can run around the entire map juking or luring enemies, the battle will timeout. It has a SCRIPTED timing that makes the battle end, it doesn't go on forever until you HAVE TO complete the objective of defeating a specific unit, it will still end even if the main unit you need to defeat is acting invincible. So the war battles only give you an illusion of choice because they all have an expiration date

And exactly when have I argued against any of that? Again, I have been very specific in my point. "NOT ALL" battles means that at least one doesn't fall into that category. You insisted they were "pretty much all scripted" which you then kept contradicting yourself by pointing out the ones that dont follow the scripted nature of the others. For example:

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

except Luca where you HAVE to damage him otherwise the battle lasts forever.

And again you prove my point. Again I said NOT ALL meaning all I needed to prove it was to show that at least one doesnt follow this pattern. What is so confusing to you about this? Reread what I said that you replied to originally.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

And then the 2 (+1) battles where you just need a single unit to reach the city. It's not necessarily scripted, but it's still an illusion of choice since you don't need more than 1 unit that reaches the city.

I don't understand your definition of illusion of choice. You have an objective to complete so you eventually have to complete it and the game leaves it up to you how you accomplish it. What exactly would freedom of choice entail for you in this situation? Attacking your own troops? Running away? Are you saying that all of Fire Emblem is "pretty much scripted" because you have to accomplish a specific objective to complete each mission? Nobody is saying that this is some open world game where you decide everything but scripted has a specific meaning in this context and as I stated previously you don't seem to understand what it means.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

And I don't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ about other games, we're talking S2 war battles here.

The examples of other games other posters used seemingly was to illustrate how completely ridiculous the logic you are presenting is. Here is another. By your own logic Breath of the Wild, a open world game is "pretty much scripted" because no matter what you do you ultimately end the game by beating Ganon. You could play for 100 hours and do everything whatever order you want, or rush straight to Ganon in 20 minutes after the tutorial but ultimately it doesn't matter, Because the game always ends the same way, by beating Ganon. Its an illusion of choice.

Do you see how insane your logic sounds yet? Everyone else has noticed this except you.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

And I know you wanna be some sort of self-proclaimed guru here since you seem to be OBLIGATED to reply to every single thread and be a smartass,

Again with the insults for lack of an arugment. You're getting quite emotinal.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

but my point still stands

Still stands? Your point never stood in the first place. I am not even sure why you are arguing this point to begin with.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

Ridley battle is in 90% of cases you're SUPPOSED to lose him.

And the game lets you win anyway. If it was scripted the game would not allow that.
There a million examples of this in the genere where you beat a boss but the game forces you to lose anyway. This scenario was specifically coded into the game to allow you to break the intented result and adapt the story as a result. Also you do realize even if you let Ridley get captured he doesn't automatically die right? You can still resuce him later if you he gets captured. He isn't guaranteed to die. Its not scripted for you to lose him.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

If you setup everything perfectly with unit management with cavalry + Chaco, have RNG blessing on your side so Ridley takes no damage AND crits most of the units surrounding him, AND survive long enough until SCRIPTED LUCA shows up, YES you can save him but the chances are miniscule

As I mentioned earlier, the RNG is deterministic for the war battles at least. Taking specific actions will always yield the same result. Also none of that is how you rescue Ridely lol.

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

For all intents and purposes, that is a losing battle.

One that the game allows you to win anyway. In a genre full of forced loses in battles regardless of player input, this is a rare example where you are allowed to break the intented scenario and the game allows it and adapts to it. That is not scripted. They specifically coded a win scenario into a battle you will most likely lose. That goes against the definition of scripted. What part of this are you not getting?

[Tenshu]

Escrito originalmente por Criosphinx:

Escrito originalmente por Tenshu:

I know you want to ride S2's rod real hard but the citing of other games was necessary because you don't know what scripted means in regards to the Ridley fight. Putting an x amount of turns to pass before a success OR fail can occur doesn't mean it's scripted, that is a dumb take. Viktor's Fort for example yes is scripted, you can't win. Even if you gave yourself max attack/defense it still results in you losing, that's a scripted fight. Someone's telling you you don't know what scripted means, you respond trying to explain the fight is scripted incorrectly and now you pivot to saying we're just arguing semantics? C'mon mayne...

And I know you wanna be some sort of self-proclaimed guru here since you seem to be OBLIGATED to reply to every single thread and be a smartass, but my point still stands that all the battles have a SET condition that occurs regardless of what you ultimately do in them. Either it's a Defeat, Retreat or Victory ending once a certain amount of turns passes. You don't need to do a thing, even losing most of your units in the process. The thing with the Ridley battle is in 90% of cases you're SUPPOSED to lose him. If you setup everything perfectly with unit management with cavalry + Chaco, have RNG blessing on your side so Ridley takes no damage AND crits most of the units surrounding him, AND survive long enough until SCRIPTED LUCA shows up, YES you can save him but the chances are miniscule. For all intents and purposes, that is a losing battle.

1. You apparently don't know what self-proclaimed means either, oof
2. NOTHING of what you said fits the battle being scripted, just hold the L, oh...
3. https://youtu.be/FPEf7Z-M5vc?si=IuuEO0vklRZN8grm

[ratedrpersona]

Are you serious?? Suikoden 1 war was lame af. Its Ninja-Counter-Win repeat. Its like Rock Papaer Scissors when you already know what the enemy was going to to! When you lose troops in a fight, use Merchants to fill up the ranks then use thieves when Ninjas all used up. It was a snoozefest.

Suikoden 2 does much better here; always looked forward to it. Its a shame we could never get Pesmerga to get near Yuber the coward mercenary or see Sasarai ever again after a minute cameo. Nonetheless you have all the control on who becomes calvary unit once more characters with that ability are recruited. Mazus, Pesmerga and anyone who boosts attack can make the game extremely easy. Just get him to an advanced position, fire rune, and see swords on the back of multiple enemies. Chaco with Flik and Tsai as the fire spear attacker will also do a lot of damage. Wars were too easy because of them but besides the Gilbert one where you have to save him and ridley being surrounded they told the story and were fun in general.