war battles in Suikoden II

[Sierra]

I really don't like the war battles in Suikoden II. I felt that way back then on PSX when I was way younger but now those battles leave such a bitter taste in my mouth.
I like them a lot storywise but other than that they just fool you in thinking you have any options or choices. if the plot does not want you to win a certain battle or even only small skirmishes within those battles, you just lose them. No matter how you arrange your troops, those numbers shown by the units (enemies and allies) don't seem to reflect anything.
At least that's true for the majority of the battles and especially in early to mid game.
It gets better at the end of the game but overall I like the rock-paper-scissor system from Suikoden a lot more.

How do you guys see that? Am I too harsh or even wrong about that?

[Raos]

Not all of them are scripted its just that the rng is completely deterministic. You can rescue Ridley for example its just REALLY hard to do so because you have to find the correct sequence of moves for the rng to work out in your favor.

[Criosphinx]

Honestly as far as the best strategist goes, I'd have to give that to Shu. From the moment he walked into that meeting before the battle against Solon Jhee at the castle and laid out that strategy, he really made a miracle happen out of nowhere and I was blown away with how well-thought of every course of action was.

As for Lucretia, she kinda pissed me off. She felt like a Mary Sue in terms of strategizing, like she just "happened to know everything" and "recalled random bits of information" out of her ass. She wasn't a Silverberg and wasn't even taught by anyone special like Shu was taught by Mathiu. She was just a random know-it-all who just happened to have elaborate strategies for no reason. I agreed with Sialeeds on her views of her, lol. Every plan Shu had you could clearly see how he got to such conclusions with specific calculations of enemy numbers, battle terrain, history of generals' experiences... I actually enjoyed reading through his lines. Lucretia? All of her rationalizations ended with "Oh... I just simply know this, teehee~". Like...seriously. ¬_¬

Mathiu though, I always felt like S1 didn't do much in terms of really embellishing the dialogue so all his strategies kinda fell flat to me. He was good, but I feel like Shu outshined him. Since he was more ruthless and didn't care about what he needed to do in order to win (AKA using Pilika), it felt like he surpassed his master. As for Leon, he was on the enemy side so we didn't really see much, but manipulating Luca and utilizing Jowy was certainly top tier. But we didn't actually witness all the details, so I still gotta give it to Shu.

Elenor was pretty underwhelming though, because S4's story felt rushed and was very short. Nothing too memorable comes to mind from her. Caesar I don't know since I haven't played S3 to the end.

[Criosphinx]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Raos:

Not all of them are scripted its just that the rng is completely deterministic. You can rescue Ridley for example its just REALLY hard to do so because you have to find the correct sequence of moves for the rng to work out in your favor.

As far as just having a Victory, they pretty much were all scripted. Just hold out the battle until the enemy retreats or your reinforcements arrive. All the battles until Luca are like this. And then afterwards it's about reaching the enemy city without having to do a single battle. That's what I didn't like, you COULD just do the whole war battle just by avoiding every enemy unit. But I always like to dispatch as many of them as possible and having as few of my units lose as possible.

[Vex]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย CLG:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Vex:

I don't know. Caesar was pretty damn underwhelming, and the first game was too short for Mathiu to shine as much as he could've. Shu and Lucretia both feel like the series' top strategists at this point, and neither is a Silverberg.

Well... protagonist strategist. Leon's the one Silverberg who outshines Mathiu.

To be fair none of the strategists really do anything super amazing. They were inspired by the strategists of classic chinese literature which had so many clever ways to shine in their history. The conflicts in Suikoden are mostly rather direct but you get minor moments of cleverness like in S1 where Mathiu was able to create a fleet of ice boats and in 2 where Shu used the kobolds to deceive the enemy. It's been a long time since i played 3-5 so I don't quite remember how the strategists worked their magic in those games but if you look at the exploits of Zhuge Liang or Zhao Yu you could see the room for a lot of really silly moments for these characters that would fit great for the series.

Shu was clever all the way down. Just about every battle had a specific strategy.

Defending the HQ and retaking South Window's territories involved a plan using boats to circle round and attack the enemy general. There was the deception of a rift between the allied forces and the kobolds to lay a trap as mentioned above, two separate ambushes against Luca Blight, organizing two separate battles to reclaim Greenhill, and lastly, the battle where he took out the enemy's top strategist.

Comparatively, while Mathiu had his moments, he just didn't have enough to shine as much. He listed out objectives, gave good counsel, but didn't come up with unorthodox methods to achieve victory.

Caesar in Suikoden III, I think, suffered from the fact that the game was incomplete.

By the time he shows up there's really only two chapters left, and all the war battle strategies he pitches boil down to, "throw soldiers at them."

I don't recall Suikoden IV well enough. Eleanor I think was her name, and while I vaguely recall liking her personality, she definitely didn't do anything as memorable as Shu.

Suikoden V really borrowed a good bit from Suikoden II, and I think Lucretia is an example, because she was a lot like Shu. She was always thinking two steps ahead of everyone else.

In her debut battle saving Raftfleet from the Godwins, she tells them to close the sluice gates up river, because she recalls there's a lot of wreckage on the river bed, and the Godwin vessels are too large and heavy and not nearly as maneuverable as Raftfleet's. Even Admiral Raja had forgotten about that. Then when it came time to save Lordlake she came up with the plan to destroy the Fortress of Hatred without destroying Lordlake with the wreckage. When the Godwins allied with the Armes kingdom, she devised the strategy to pull back and launch a counter-attack. Every battle plan was clever, meticulously crafted, and displayed how she was thinking FAR ahead of everyone else.

[Raos]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Criosphinx:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Raos:

Not all of them are scripted its just that the rng is completely deterministic. You can rescue Ridley for example its just REALLY hard to do so because you have to find the correct sequence of moves for the rng to work out in your favor.

As far as just having a Victory, they pretty much were all scripted. Just hold out the battle until the enemy retreats or your reinforcements arrive. All the battles until Luca are like this. And then afterwards it's about reaching the enemy city without having to do a single battle. That's what I didn't like, you COULD just do the whole war battle just by avoiding every enemy unit. But I always like to dispatch as many of them as possible and having as few of my units lose as possible.

So by your own admission the battles after Luca are not scripted therefore not *all* battle are scripted which is what I said. Just like the battle where Ridley is surrounded where I mentioned a hidden alternate outcome for the battle that was really hard to get on account of how the rng in this game works. A battle having a set win condition does not make it "scripted" in the way were are talking about.

[Zeo]

S2 writing is waaaaaaaaaaay better than the first one, so I don't think I can give Mathiu an honest evaluation, but the guy had too many great heroes at his disposal, Joshua for example is no joke as the guy can command a entire fleet of dragons as a true rune bearer.

Also Windy really was very slope as she never cared about war and territories, all her efforts was to get the Soul Eater rune, so I can say that Shu had way worse than Mathiu and still won.

[Tenshu]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Zeo:

Joshua for example is no joke as the guy can command a entire fleet of dragons as a true rune bearer.

That lose to pew pew arrows

[Criosphinx]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Raos:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Criosphinx:

As far as just having a Victory, they pretty much were all scripted. Just hold out the battle until the enemy retreats or your reinforcements arrive. All the battles until Luca are like this. And then afterwards it's about reaching the enemy city without having to do a single battle. That's what I didn't like, you COULD just do the whole war battle just by avoiding every enemy unit. But I always like to dispatch as many of them as possible and having as few of my units lose as possible.

So by your own admission the battles after Luca are not scripted therefore not *all* battle are scripted which is what I said. Just like the battle where Ridley is surrounded where I mentioned a hidden alternate outcome for the battle that was really hard to get on account of how the rng in this game works. A battle having a set win condition does not make it "scripted" in the way were are talking about.

Uhhh the Ridley rescue battle is definitely scripted. He's MEANT to lose there and you either arrive to see him already killed, or arrive late and watch him get killed. Actually rescuing him is not the intended way that battle goes. That's the beauty of S2, there's a LOT of secret events and scenes so they actually implemented an extremely low chance to save him. But for all intents and purposes, you're MEANT to lose him there.

As for the rest, I singled out the Luca battle because you ONLY win that one by damaging his unit, no matter what else you do in the battle. The others are 100% scripted, and then you have the 3 that you need to just reach the city without having to fight (Muse, L'Renouille, and Greenhill with Kiba which is also optional). I'd lump that into the scripted battles more so than the Luca one since the win condition isn't defeating any particular unit.

[Raos]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Criosphinx:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Raos:

So by your own admission the battles after Luca are not scripted therefore not *all* battle are scripted which is what I said. Just like the battle where Ridley is surrounded where I mentioned a hidden alternate outcome for the battle that was really hard to get on account of how the rng in this game works. A battle having a set win condition does not make it "scripted" in the way were are talking about.

Uhhh the Ridley rescue battle is definitely scripted. He's MEANT to lose there and you either arrive to see him already killed, or arrive late and watch him get killed. Actually rescuing him is not the intended way that battle goes. That's the beauty of S2, there's a LOT of secret events and scenes so they actually implemented an extremely low chance to save him. But for all intents and purposes, you're MEANT to lose him there.

As for the rest, I singled out the Luca battle because you ONLY win that one by damaging his unit, no matter what else you do in the battle. The others are 100% scripted, and then you have the 3 that you need to just reach the city without having to fight (Muse, L'Renouille, and Greenhill with Kiba which is also optional). I'd lump that into the scripted battles more so than the Luca one since the win condition isn't defeating any particular unit.

I dont think you understand what the word scripted means. Yes you are meant to lose the battle, but the fact you can win it anyway means its not scripted. You changed the intended outcome and the game allows it, meaning it is not scripted by definition.

Being able to win a battle without fighting means you have choice on how to approach a battle and therefore is also not scripted.

[valium]

Suikoden 5 actually made the strategy battles feel significant, and fun.

[Tenshu]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Criosphinx:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Raos:

So by your own admission the battles after Luca are not scripted therefore not *all* battle are scripted which is what I said. Just like the battle where Ridley is surrounded where I mentioned a hidden alternate outcome for the battle that was really hard to get on account of how the rng in this game works. A battle having a set win condition does not make it "scripted" in the way were are talking about.

Uhhh the Ridley rescue battle is definitely scripted. He's MEANT to lose there and you either arrive to see him already killed, or arrive late and watch him get killed. Actually rescuing him is not the intended way that battle goes. That's the beauty of S2, there's a LOT of secret events and scenes so they actually implemented an extremely low chance to save him. But for all intents and purposes, you're MEANT to lose him there.

As for the rest, I singled out the Luca battle because you ONLY win that one by damaging his unit, no matter what else you do in the battle. The others are 100% scripted, and then you have the 3 that you need to just reach the city without having to fight (Muse, L'Renouille, and Greenhill with Kiba which is also optional). I'd lump that into the scripted battles more so than the Luca one since the win condition isn't defeating any particular unit.

Yeah... let's dial this back a bit since you want to now be dishonest to not have to hold an L.
FF7 last Sephiroth battle... no matter what you do, Cloud will win. Attack Seph, you win. Get hit, Cloud counters and wins. That's scripted. The Grafted Scion in Elden Ring is supposedly to be unwinnable and you would think it's scripted but even a fresh character can beat the Grafted Scion and get a bonus out of it, therefore not scripted.

By your logic, DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi's fights that unlock alt stories if you actually beat them are scripted... what?

[Criosphinx]

...Oh joy, here comes the semantics crew~ You guys are always my favorite. c:

Are you SERIOUSLY gonna be arguing whether or not there's any actual meaning or choice in the S2 war battles? Here's a step-by-step for you to understand if you're 5:

You get into a war battle. Apple/Shu relays the objective, usually to defeat an enemy unit OR hold off. You go battling. The RNG kicks in on the unit you need to defeat and you keep slaving away trying to defeat them. Either lose your own units or you're at a stalemate. The battle ALWAYS ENDS AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TURNS. So you can do nothing and wait it out, the battle will timeout. You can fight enemies, the battle will timeout. You can run around the entire map juking or luring enemies, the battle will timeout. It has a SCRIPTED timing that makes the battle end, it doesn't go on forever until you HAVE TO complete the objective of defeating a specific unit, it will still end even if the main unit you need to defeat is acting invincible. So the war battles only give you an illusion of choice because they all have an expiration date except Luca where you HAVE to damage him otherwise the battle lasts forever. And then the 2 (+1) battles where you just need a single unit to reach the city. It's not necessarily scripted, but it's still an illusion of choice since you don't need more than 1 unit that reaches the city.

And I don't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ about other games, we're talking S2 war battles here.

[Ray Rook]

There's a couple battles you have free reign on... and you definitely have some control on Ridley's outcome.

[Criosphinx]

Seriously, define "free reign" when the battle has an expiration date no matter what decisions you take. You can just make it harder (fight enemies) or easier (avoid enemies).

[Tenshu]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Criosphinx:

...Oh joy, here comes the semantics crew~ You guys are always my favorite. c:

Are you SERIOUSLY gonna be arguing whether or not there's any actual meaning or choice in the S2 war battles? Here's a step-by-step for you to understand if you're 5:

You get into a war battle. Apple/Shu relays the objective, usually to defeat an enemy unit OR hold off. You go battling. The RNG kicks in on the unit you need to defeat and you keep slaving away trying to defeat them. Either lose your own units or you're at a stalemate. The battle ALWAYS ENDS AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TURNS. So you can do nothing and wait it out, the battle will timeout. You can fight enemies, the battle will timeout. You can run around the entire map juking or luring enemies, the battle will timeout. It has a SCRIPTED timing that makes the battle end, it doesn't go on forever until you HAVE TO complete the objective of defeating a specific unit, it will still end even if the main unit you need to defeat is acting invincible. So the war battles only give you an illusion of choice because they all have an expiration date except Luca where you HAVE to damage him otherwise the battle lasts forever. And then the 2 (+1) battles where you just need a single unit to reach the city. It's not necessarily scripted, but it's still an illusion of choice since you don't need more than 1 unit that reaches the city.

And I don't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ about other games, we're talking S2 war battles here.

I know you want to ride S2's rod real hard but the citing of other games was necessary because you don't know what scripted means in regards to the Ridley fight. Putting an x amount of turns to pass before a success OR fail can occur doesn't mean it's scripted, that is a dumb take. Viktor's Fort for example yes is scripted, you can't win. Even if you gave yourself max attack/defense it still results in you losing, that's a scripted fight. Someone's telling you you don't know what scripted means, you respond trying to explain the fight is scripted incorrectly and now you pivot to saying we're just arguing semantics? C'mon mayne...