Hard Mode Players, Question For You All (Suikoden 2)

[IAmVianca]

So, here's the thing...am I the only one noticing that drop rates on Hard are ABYSMAL?

Been trying to get what isn't even a rare drop (Potato Seed, Sound Set 2, and Recipe 29) on the Matilda Forest Path for almost 3 hours now with no luck. I even have Meg, Viki, and Hero with high Luck stat, placed Meg on the first spot, whatever else trick I've learned from playing the original and it just seemed like the drop rates are skewed on Hard Mode (which I feel is the only reason this mode is hard, haha).

So, any other Hard Mode players experiencing this?

[itcantbehelped]

has anyone seen the rare drop fish badge are ryube town drop??? cause i've got the thing where the item shop showing rear but that fish badge hasn't came and i've done it at least 100 plus times. not gotten it yet any info or clues?

[HxRaider]

Originally posted by Tenshu:

I use the Fix mod for vignette removal and run toggle and have not run into any drop issue or even the softlock problem in that other topic...

i do use suikoden fix for increased drop and encounter rate, i use the increased drop rate in the latter part of my playthrough, around greenhill liberation, some of the rare item do drop easily, only hard time i got is the papaholly and highlands soldier in rockaxe, but they still drop the item
and somehow rockadillo two river never drop the turtle plan #1 eventhough i increase the drop rate to 100%

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by HxRaider:

Originally posted by Tenshu:

I use the Fix mod for vignette removal and run toggle and have not run into any drop issue or even the softlock problem in that other topic...

i do use suikoden fix for increased drop and encounter rate, i use the increased drop rate in the latter part of my playthrough, around greenhill liberation, some of the rare item do drop easily, only hard time i got is the papaholly and highlands soldier in rockaxe, but they still drop the item
and somehow rockadillo two river never drop the turtle plan #1 eventhough i increase the drop rate to 100%

Because you're using a mod. Stop.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by itcantbehelped:

has anyone seen the rare drop fish badge are ryube town drop??? cause i've got the thing where the item shop showing rear but that fish badge hasn't came and i've done it at least 100 plus times. not gotten it yet any info or clues?

I have 3-4 of them in my warehouse.

[Dragnier]

I am playing on Hard, no problems with the drops at all on either game.
Have obtained all the seeds for Tony without issues, there is some grinding involved but definitely not that bad.

[HxRaider]

Originally posted by Furry Wrecking Crew:

Because you're using a mod. Stop.

Hmmmm... Sure

[IAmVianca]

Originally posted by Dragnier:

I am playing on Hard, no problems with the drops at all on either game.
Have obtained all the seeds for Tony without issues, there is some grinding involved but definitely not that bad.

Have gotten all the achievements and 100% the game, and yeah. The drop rates are low and it does require grinding in the same vein as the Beigomas in Eiyuden. I still feel like the drops (currently replaying the OG Suikoden 2) are a lot less of a hassle in the original...though, I guess it could also be attributed to the RNG I had playing them at the time.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by HxRaider:

Originally posted by Furry Wrecking Crew:

Because you're using a mod. Stop.

Hmmmm... Sure

If you are having trouble with drops, and using a mod that affects drops, then your problem is clearly the mod. I am not using any mods and there is no issue with drops.

I got those Turtle plans #1 and #2 without trying. Seriously, STOP using the mod, it's broken.

[Tenshu]

Originally posted by Furry Wrecking Crew:

Originally posted by HxRaider:

Hmmmm... Sure

If you are having trouble with drops, and using a mod that affects drops, then your problem is clearly the mod. I am not using any mods and there is no issue with drops.

I got those Turtle plans #1 and #2 without trying. Seriously, STOP using the mod, it's broken.

Not quite the mod, but how Suikoden goes about drops. If you have 100% drops for EVERYTHING, the enemy in the uppermost slots will take priority, so if there's a formation where an enemy you want is in the back, the mod will backfire on you as Suikoden doesn't do multiple drops, it'll go with the other enemy's drop and give it to you.

[Warrior of Right]

Originally posted by Tenshu:

Tbf the original had a low drop rate so you're probably misremembering...

Or this is a unity port and not the original so the drops could be completely messed up like the Pixel Remasters (not just drop rates but the enemy encounter rates too)

i'm not an expert in the Suikoden games but i know for a fact Squenix messed up the "RNG" for those unity ports.

Originally posted by Furry Wrecking Crew:

Originally posted by HxRaider:

i do use suikoden fix for increased drop and encounter rate, i use the increased drop rate in the latter part of my playthrough, around greenhill liberation, some of the rare item do drop easily, only hard time i got is the papaholly and highlands soldier in rockaxe, but they still drop the item
and somehow rockadillo two river never drop the turtle plan #1 eventhough i increase the drop rate to 100%

Because you're using a mod. Stop.

Did you even read what you quoted double posting guy?!?
He said the mod is making them drop MORE often, but it's so broken some drops STILL aren't dropping...

if that isn't a glowing endorsement to use the Fix i don't know what is...
(would use the fix for this alone even if it didn't have all the other QoL fixes..
haven't seen the drop rate multiplier mentioned anywhere else)

How about YOU stop telling other people not to use mods to fix what is clearly broken, if you have hours to waste on broken "RNG" then go right ahead we will not tell you to not waste your time like you trying to tell others not to use mods that fix it or even just mentioning it.

[Tenshu]

Originally posted by Warrior of Right:

Originally posted by Tenshu:

Tbf the original had a low drop rate so you're probably misremembering...

Or this is a unity port and not the original so the drops could be completely messed up

No, the opposite actually I believe. Under the hood, people have found things got buffed, not quite sure if drop rates were but I think so.

I explained your second paragraph in my other post too. The only posts I've seen of people claiming the drops are bugged either misremembered they already got it and handed a key item in (once you get it, you can't get it as a drop anymore) or were using a mod that increases drop rate or guarantees drops while not understanding how Suikoden distributes an item drop.

[Warrior of Right]

Originally posted by Tenshu:

Originally posted by Warrior of Right:

Or this is a unity port and not the original so the drops could be completely messed up

No, the opposite actually I believe. Under the hood, people have found things got buffed, not quite sure if drop rates were but I think so.

I explained your second paragraph in my other post too.

Not saying things couldn't have been buffed.

i got 3 of the 4 rare asss FF4 summons in the PR in 1 or 2 battles that i could never get to drop in any other version but then other stuff that should drop much easier became just as rare as those almost impossible summon drops completely "random" to the point of not being random anymore in any sense of the word.

That's why i am saying these unity ports can completely mess up the "RNG" if you can even call it that when i was getting the same 4 wolf battles 10+ times in a row that would never happen in the originals and other remakes.


Yes i saw your post right before mine after i finished typing.
Do these enemies with rare drops not appear in battles by themselves to know for sure it is being overwritten?!?

Like i said i am not a Suikoden expert, but these are not the original games not everything works the same as them as i found out for the Pixel Remasters when most of the other remakes had some form of similar/functioning RNG.
(it doesn't have to be PR levels of completely broken to be off or "broken")

[Tenshu]

Originally posted by Warrior of Right:

Originally posted by Tenshu:

No, the opposite actually I believe. Under the hood, people have found things got buffed, not quite sure if drop rates were but I think so.

I explained your second paragraph in my other post too.

Not saying things couldn't have been buffed.

i got 3 of the 4 rare asss FF4 summons in the PR in 1 or 2 battles that i could never get to drop in any other version but then other stuff that should drop much easier became just as rare as those almost impossible summon drops completely "random" to the point of not being random anymore in any sense of the word.

That's why i am saying these unity ports can completely mess up the "RNG" if you can even call it that when i was getting the same 4 wolf battles 10+ times in a row that would never happen in the originals and other remakes.


Yes i saw your post right before mine after i finished typing.
Do these enemies with rare drops not appear in battles by themselves to know for sure it is being overwritten?!?

Like i said i am not a Suikoden expert, but these are not the original games not everything works the same as them as i found out for the Pixel Remasters when most of the other remakes had some form of similar/functioning RNG.
(it doesn't have to be PR levels of completely broken to be off or "broken")

A. Quite possible to get the same formation over and over in FF, original or remaster, I am witness to that lol.
B. You keep saying you're not a Suikoden expert yet you do a lot of interjection... and not a whole lot of listening, lol. Suikoden doesn't really have much rare enemies at all so the idea of them being alone isn't much of a thing, but as I said the game doesn't distribute multiple item drops. It's very primitive in that it's first come first serve and enemies can have multiple drops to choose from. Once the game does decide to choose, it gives it to you in order of what enemy tripped it on death. Most of the good drops are from "leader" enemies (the Commander in S2 dropping the Flame Helmet as an example), so they're usually in the back like say the armor enemy in S1 that drops the Main-Gauche. If you enable a 100% drop cheat/mod and get the formation where it's with a bunch of shield enemies, you will get the shield's drop always, because the armor is all the way in the back (unless you focus it by critting tf out of it with Kirkis or something) but the shield you killed with the cheat on tripped the check. This enemy does have a formation where it's alone and if you use the cheat there: Main-Gauche.

[Warrior of Right]

No you never get the same EXACT SAME wolves formation in FF1 10 plus times in a row in FF1 in the first area..
i have played PS1 GBA PSP and that has not happened to me once.
(have you even played the Pixel Remaster version because i have 100% the original PC release and the updated console version and the RNG fukery stood out like a sore thumb it nothing like the other versions in that aspect and like with the FF4 rare summon example i used you completely ignored..
i also never had my Red Mage make it past level 5 and STILL be stuck at 30 HP..
that is Pixel Remaster Unity exclusive BS)

if by "interjection" you mean spitting the facts i know and ASKING about what i don't know.
Whatever rare enemy/rare drop whatever the example that was brought up is since i am not too familiar why i asked.
(i haven't played Suikodens since they first came out on PS1 over 2 decades ago
i would have played the PSP ports but they were never localised)

Sounds like you aint listening i never said rare enemies i said rare drops only.
i am trying to listen, i understand the first come first serve and overwriting part that is like many JRPG's,
what i'm getting at is the actual formations that i don't remember that would be this game specific, are these Commander and Shield enemies different enemies?
Because if so my question still stands can you get different formations where the front row wouldn't be overwriting each other with higher drop rates?
(can you not just attack the back row first?!?)

I would normally just use mods to mitigate the RNG BS but if what you are saying still applies to this version it sounds like something i should be aware of.

[Tenshu]

Originally posted by Warrior of Right:

No you never get the same EXACT SAME wolves formation in FF1 10 plus times in a row in FF1 in the first area..
i have played PS1 GBA PSP and that has not happened to me once.
(have you even played the Pixel Remaster version because i have 100% the original PC release and the updated console version and the RNG fukery stood out like a sore thumb it nothing like the other versions in that aspect and like with the FF4 rare summon example i used you completely ignored..
i also never had my Red Mage make it past level 5 and STILL be stuck at 30 HP..
that is Pixel Remaster Unity exclusive BS)

if by "interjection" you mean spitting the facts i know and ASKING about what i don't know.
Whatever rare enemy/rare drop whatever the example that was brought up is since i am not too familiar why i asked.
(i haven't played Suikodens since they first came out on PS1 over 2 decades ago
i would have played the PSP ports but they were never localised)

Sounds like you aint listening i never said rare enemies i said rare drops only.
i am trying to listen, i understand the first come first serve and overwriting part that is like many JRPG's,
what i'm getting at is the actual formations that i don't remember that would be this game specific, are these Commander and Shield enemies different enemies?
Because if so my question still stands can you get different formations where the front row wouldn't be overwriting each other with higher drop rates?
(can you not just attack the back row first?!?)

I would normally just use mods to mitigate the RNG BS but if what you are saying still applies to this version it sounds like something i should be aware of.

RNGesus is only manipulative if you know how, otherwise everything is left up to chance and can even lead to superstition. I keep running into a Zubat. I run from it and keep running into another one with the same Level even (obv different IVs but you don't usually think about that) until I kill it then I get a Geodude next. It's superstition.

I mentioned you interjecting because that's really what you're doing, you get explained how this works and your first response is "But this this, but this this, but pixel remaster, but Unity, but" bro just read, lol. You're not spitting facts, because you have no evidence Unity does screw with RNG in the way you're saying it does. Has there been different methods developed for RNG over the years? Yes. That's not what's being argued in this topic, in fact someone's experience in finally getting a drop matched exactly how someone experienced the same item drop in the og a decade or so prior: the desire sensor phenomenon. What you're doing is conjecture and assumption, unless you can provide documentation. Pretty sure you can ask on the Moogles & Mods discord if you are correct as they would be more knowledgeable than you or I. I did address if you use such mods/cheats, focus the enemy you want the drop from first with magic or a powerful L range character.
All JRPGs like this have formations, the game doesn't generate formations by itself from a pool of enemies. S2 in particular the same enemy may have a different item pool if encountered in another area. So back to my example I did say if you want the Main Gauche you should focus down the armor first with Kirkis or a powerful single target spell, because otherwise you'll get a Chaos Shield from the shields if you Hell the formation or something.

For the og, anything listed with 100% drop rate in S2 is actually in error due to dev oversight, whether the remaster fixed it or not idk

Originally posted by Celes responding to someone asking about drops in the remaster using mods:

Someone once discovered that there are no 100% drop rates. Instead, what I listed as a 100% drop rate in the bestiary is actually only a 255/256 drop rate due to bad coding. This means you could have just been very unlucky :wink:
Or they changed the drop rate. Or you patched something that broke the drop rates.

Here is what is found by Julian, who is a contributor and regularly dives into the assembly of the games:

Originally posted by Julian:

Drop rates in 1 were never /256.

They were always /100, with each enemy having three slots, and the game doing a 1/3 roll first to determine which slot to check. This means if an enemy has a 2/100 drop rate on slot 1, there's a 1/3 chance that slot is chosen, and then 2/100 chance that item drops, hence, 2/300.

Unfortunately not really able to read this version's code much/at all, to look for differences there.

edit: Reading hardcoded values going into a function call, however, is super easy to check. That's what potency does. I went through and double checked all unite damage (they're hardcoded in the code), there are no changes. Confirms everything I double checked earlier. (meaning, suikosource list is right minus blacksmith which should be 3x.)

Kinda doing your work for you, this is like the only thing I found concerning RNG between the original FF and the PR:

Originally posted by Armenius:

They made Warmech a lot rarer in FF1 this time around for some reason. A lot of people are complaining that they're farming for it for hours not finding a single encounter to finish their bestiary. It took me nearly three hours to finally run into one, and it ran away right before the round in which I would have landed the final blows. At least seeing the encounter counts for the bestiary, so you don't actually need to beat it for it to count. In the original NES version I always happened to be in the right place on the RNG table to always run into a Warmech as soon as I stepped on the bridge, even though it was supposedly a 3/64 chance.

And here is a post on RNG manipulation in the NES/Famicom version:

Originally posted by Cestrum:

NES is a fixed table which additionally attrits at one value per frame when idling on the combat menu.
So if you're just looking for extra entropy/a way to "reroll" like you would on some older games that use an unmodified fixed list, you're out of luck, the game's already doing it for you.
If you want to actually manipulate, the table itself and some commentary on how to find your current location (the offset is left uninitialized at boot and whatever values happen to be there from crosstalk and RF are your seed) is on TASVideos.org, but doing the quite extensive math out is left as an exercise; note that both the beginning of a combat round and every action also consumes north of a dozen values, and that as one value is consumed per frame where the menu is open for input the only way to "keep sync" is to hold either A or B and thus consume a value while moving game state on or consume a value while keeping it the same. For this reason it's essentially only viable without TAS for a single living character who always chooses to make a melee attack.