Cred Challenge

[hanbaoluo]

Complete a mission with Kill Every Creep using the least amount of cred. That is, have the largest amount of cred at the end of the mission. This does not include endless mode.

Rules:

1. Kill Every Creep
   
2. Structures allowed = All, No SRM Launcher, or just “guns” are examples
   
3. Rushing allowed
   
4. No selling towers
   
5. No Abilities
   
6. No Artifacts
   
7. Never go below your Start Cred[i.imgur.com] while playing the mission
   
8. Challenge Cred = Final Cred - Start Cred

Why this challenge? If a setup has enough damage to kill all the creeps, you get the same final score[i.imgur.com] (no mutations). I want a way to play a mission so that the “score” depends more on the setup. One way is to use the least amount of creds to complete a mission with Kill Every Creep. Rules five, six and seven make a level playing field. These are simple rules for a player to apply.

These types of setups can help beginners because they start with weak artifacts. After you have artifacts that give 60% damage to SRM launchers, many of the beginning maps are very easy to complete. This challenge can give you a reason to replay them, going for a cost efficient setup.

Examples:

Prototypical - Hard - Just Guns
Final setup[i.imgur.com]
Challenge cred = 3672 - 351 = 3321

Prototypical - Hard - No SRM Launcher
Final setup[i.imgur.com]
Challenge cred = 3890 - 351 = 3539

So what do people think?

[mikeydsc]

Im just curious about rule 7.
If I cant go below my starting cred, how is it possible to buy a starting tower with out going below? Im at a loss on how to build the initial setup without going below what I started with?

[hanbaoluo]

Първоначално публикувано от mikeydsc:

Im just curious about rule 7.
If I cant go below my starting cred, how is it possible to buy a starting tower with out going below? Im at a loss on how to build the initial setup without going below what I started with?

For me, Prototypical - Hard, I started with 801 cred of which 351 was Start Cred, so 450 to build with. Start Cred[i.imgur.com] is under the Level menu. For Prototypical - Hard what amount of cred did you start with and what was your Start Cred?

Rule 7 could be removed. However that gives players with more Start Cred the possibility to place a tower to Kill Every Creep, while players with less Start Cred can not and fail the challenge.

[mikeydsc]

I see. You are using w/e bonus you have to starting money to buy with. I was thinking the amount you started with including the bonus.

Will check it out later tonight.

[Narlak]

This thread makes me happy :)

[John]

Btw. you can get more credits when you intentionally mutate as much as possible by rushing every wave, creating a towerless maze and killing the creeps as late as possible. Not sure yet whether it is cost effective to add some lag fields into the maze, just to keep even more creeps on the map. Brian + 1 (or 2 if neccessary) flame turbines with damage uppgrade only can kill even all the mutated creeps. For guns only, it is quite challenging to find the optiomal setup with mass mutations.

[mikeydsc]

Първоначално публикувано от Narlak:

This thread makes me happy :)

I know of hanbaoluo from DG1. He was one of the top players so it will get interesting to see how we can stack up against him.

Im still early into the game and only have a dozen maps open so I am lagging way behind John and Han. Just opened up the flame thrower a few minutes ago.

EDIT - Just noticed John and Han are in the mid 100's and here I am at level 16 :)

[John]

This is a sample setup for getting the creeps to mutate, killing them late. My setup is really poorly optimized, in an optimal setup you should be able to get 800 to 1500 credits more:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3♥♥♥♥17767

[hanbaoluo]

@John

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and setup. I had mostly rushed a few waves to go under the bonus timer. Now I will rush a lot more. I played your setup. Great place for the flame turbine. Cool to see the creeps dying just as they stepped on the driller platform. The challenge can be completed with just the lag field and flame turbine. Is the mazing there for “killing the creeps as late as possible” ? How does this give more cred?

I found your how to beat a map guide very helpful. I would never have come up with the face-tanking driller.

[John]

When creeps start mutating that means new creeps can spawn at higher tiers. Higher tier creeps give higher rewards. With 200 units on the map the mutating starts, with 225 units new creeps can mutate 2 tiers, and with 250 units the spawning is paused. The more units above 200 are on the map, the slower the spawning process, which is bad when you want to keep the as many creeps as possible on the map, so the path has to be even longer to compensate.

Critters give 1.5 / 2 / 3.5 / 7.5 / 10 / 16 credits (and score) for base / adept / elite / alpha / prime / hyper 1-10, other creeps give
2 / 3 / 5 / 10 / 15 / 22.5.
Hyper 11+ give same credits as hyper 1 but higher score.
So having higher tier creeps spawn can substantially increase the overall amount of credits earned. Since they have a lot more hp, some of this extra income is eaten up by extra expenses into stronger towers.

Or to sum it up, they are killed late, so more units are on the map, so more mutations.

[hanbaoluo]

@John

Thank you for the detailed explanation for how mutations work. I want to think about this.

[hanbaoluo]

How rushing waves with mutations affect different setups

One Flame turbine (F)
Final cred 5325
Final score 8577
Upkeep tax -0.6%
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3150066081
Walls Flame turbine Lag field (WFL)
Final cred 5185
Final score 9615
Upkeep tax -3.4%
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3150067757
All waves rushed and Kill Every Creep.

What I saw.
(WFL) had creep numbers above 200 more often than (F). Also (WFL) had creep numbers above 225 more often than (F).

Results:
(WFL) higher final score 9615 vs 8577
(F) larger final cred 5325 vs 5158

How to understand the results.
When creeps are killed you get cred and score. Rushing waves puts more creeps on the map. When the creep population is 200 or above new creeps spawn with more cred, score, and health. If creep numbers are 225 and above, creeps spawn with even more cred, score, and health. Because of the greater number of mutations / tiers (WFL) had a higher score. (F) has a lower upkeep tax -0.6% compared to (WFL) -3.4%. The lower upkeep tax for (F) gave more final credits than (WFL) even though (WFL) had more mutations. (WFL) killed creeps that had more cred and score but its upkeep tax -3.4% made its final cred less than (F).

[John]

I agree with your conclusions.

I tested some more, and maybe you can only mutate 2 tiers at 249 creeps with 50% chance (but not sure about that), and have a the chance to mutate 1 tier might increase from 50% at 200 creeps to 100% at 225 creeps, but not sure if this numbers are exact.

Anyway lets look at the numbers for Prototypical, to estimate the potential:
you get 450 credits to start with.
If you rush as much as possible, you get 570 credits from futurist rewards, which aren't affected by upkeep (or difficulty, not that this matters).
So a fixed amount of 450 + 570 = 1020 guaranteed:

If you don't mutate you get 2166 rewards from killing Critters + 324.9 credits from their 15% rush bonus.
From killing Runners you get 1180 + 177 rush bonus.
You get another 14 * 12 * (1 + 14) / 2 = 1260 from wave bonusses.

That makes 5107.9 credits, that are affected by upkeep.
So with 0 upkeep and 0 expenses you you get a theroretical maximum of 5107.9 + 1020 = 6127.9 credits, that you can have left over.

If you mutate every creep 1 tier after the 240 creeps that spawn from wave 1 to 5 you can earn
3324 + 498.6 rush bonus from Critters and
1910 + 286.5 from Runners
Together with the unchanged wave bonusses that makes
7279.1 credits, that are affected by upkeep for a total of
8299.1 earnable credits with 1 mutation.

That is 8299.1 - 6127.9 = 2171.2 credits more from 1 tier mutations.
So if you lose less credits from upkeep and tower costs than that, mutations can net you a nice profit.

In a not too well optimized run where I was leaking some enemies I got a little over 5600 credits with 395 credit character-level-bonus that would have to be substracted.
I am certain the highest possible achievable result is higher than that, I am certain leaking creeps was preventable in the setup.

I would estimate that the best possible result (with substracted character-level-bonus) is probably between 5200 and 6000, or maybe even more than that.

Maybe having a whole bunch of lag fields on the map or something of that nature could be optimal, since mutations are really valueable. Maybe towers other than Flame turbines. Guess there is a lot of room to experiment.

[hanbaoluo]

@John

Thank you for taking the time to work out this specific example. I really appreciate it. I need to think about and play the game more to understand the numbers. Will have more questions.

I want to start a weekly Cred Challenge. The post is below. I welcome your thoughts on it.

[hanbaoluo]

Weekly Cred Challenge

For the first Cred Challenge I choose

Prototypical - Hard - Guns Only (blaster, artillery, splatter gun, ranger turret, and wall)

These are beginning towers and the first map so every player can participate. Feel free to share your setup and advice. If you want to wait until the end of the challenge to share, that is fine too. The winner of the challenge gets to make up the next Cred Challenge. All are welcome, even the Developer.

The spirit that I want these challenges to have is summed up by Takista/Yangsapozol and Salmusco (significant Defense Grid players)

Takista/Yangsapozol and Salmusco[i.imgur.com]

Първоначално публикувано от Takista:

I think that…
Score and ranking are meaningless …
But improvement in one’s strategy is meaningful.

Първоначално публикувано от Salmusco:

Yes that is very deep. None of it matters really for it is all just a game. We do enjoy it, however...

[hanbaoluo]

Prototypical - Hard - Guns Only

Final setup[i.imgur.com]
Challenge cred = 3672 - 351 = 3321

Above is my previous attempt. From what I have learned from John's posts my next cred score will certainly improve :)