Is it me or does the game make light of the Aphrodite ritual?

[Elkondo]

Spoilers, obviously.

I see what they were going for. On the surface the entire situation seems to be taken seriously enough. But when you think about it, it's really quite disturbing, if not in bad taste. Not only does Aphrodite keep killing herself, she knowingly keeps grooming regular, innocent people into doing the same. And unless I missed something, that's not really mentioned in conversations with her successor, nor with anyone else for that matter.

And then, despite it being an age old thing that keeps happening over and over, something Aphrodite struggles with and prepares for for a long time, suddenly of all people it's the main character that's able to talk her out of it through a 'you're selfish, think of your friends' song, all within a couple minutes of meeting her?

Maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but for a game that starts with an apology for being created on stolen land, this entire scene feels very insensitive towards a very serious topic many people struggle with.

[dorohn]

I feel it handled the situation well enough. And the choice is ultimately up to her to decide whether to go through the ritual or not.

[Mockingdragon]

In my opinion, for all it's worth, it's enough of a magic/fantasy setting that it's able to be a parallel to a suicide without being one exactly. I admit, I went into my first run expecting to try to talk her out of it, and found myself empathizing too much and left it to her decision. To me that felt...more true than just a blanket condemnation.

I agree that Grace being able to shake her out of it is kind of sudden, but then that's a protagonist thing. She's also able to hook up her friends and fall in love within a week so that doesn't bother me.

[FranGran]

I think part of what happens it's the idols know each other for so so long that everyone has a story with somebody. Nobody wants to be the one disturbing the "peace" that they have and that's why Calliope it's the weird one. She challenges the status quo

For me it felt like Grace was exactly the best choice Calliope could have done because she challenges and ask questions about things. I dont know you, but i called Athenas ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with medusa the second i got the chance.

Aphrodite has his problems but I dont think she "grooms" anybody. Venus lookd pretty well informed about why Aphrodite was doing the Ritual and knew that it already happened. In fact Venus hoped that when she will be Aphrodite things will be different and Venus/Aphro could overcome the trauma.

[rmsgrey]

Yeah, if you dig into the conversations with everyone, Venus mentions that she hopes that her contribution to the new Aphrodite will be enough to finally tip the scale, Eros says that he thinks (or at least hopes) that Aphrodite recognises that what she's doing isn't working, and Aphrodite herself says both that she knew deep down it wasn't working, and that what Grace had offered her may turn out to only have been a postponement, not a permanent fix.

Ultimately, of course, what (probably) saves Aphrodite is the same thing that saves all the Idols - Grace toppling the castle and breaking everyone out of the unhealthy pattern they'd been stuck in for almost eighty years - but the point of the Ritual is not that Aphrodite is committed to suicide as the perfect solution until Grace brainwashes her out of it, but that Aphrodite has made a habit of suicide, and is putting off trying to find a different solution until Grace (as an outsider) forces her to confront the problem. Grace doesn't make Aphrodite do anything - she's just an excuse for Aphrodite to do what she knew she should.

[valeran46]

Publicado originalmente por Elkondo:

Spoilers, obviously.

I see what they were going for. On the surface the entire situation seems to be taken seriously enough. But when you think about it, it's really quite disturbing, if not in bad taste. Not only does Aphrodite keep killing herself, she knowingly keeps grooming regular, innocent people into doing the same. And unless I missed something, that's not really mentioned in conversations with her successor, nor with anyone else for that matter.

And then, despite it being an age old thing that keeps happening over and over, something Aphrodite struggles with and prepares for for a long time, suddenly of all people it's the main character that's able to talk her out of it through a 'you're selfish, think of your friends' song, all within a couple minutes of meeting her?

Maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but for a game that starts with an apology for being created on stolen land, this entire scene feels very insensitive towards a very serious topic many people struggle with.

I don't think it made light of it at all. It presents a situation with a moral choice for the player to make. Each choice is given context and a compelling reason to take it. And, as noted, it's not "exactly" her committing suicide as her eidolon is passed on thereby preserving her to the next host. As for Aphrodite finding her successors, yes, it is stated that she "prepares" them for what is to happen so we can extrapolate that they are aware that this is not the first time, that the memories will return, etc.

As for you being able to talk her out of it when others didn't, we get no hint that anyone tried, other than maybe Eros at the beginning and that isn't even specifically stated to my knowledge (maybe and I missed that). So, you being the first and inspiring others to speak out, with that being the catalyst for her to decide not to go through with it isn't that jarring, least to me.

[ApolloFowl711]

Publicado originalmente por rmsgrey:

Yeah, if you dig into the conversations with everyone, Venus mentions that she hopes that her contribution to the new Aphrodite will be enough to finally tip the scale, Eros says that he thinks (or at least hopes) that Aphrodite recognises that what she's doing isn't working, and Aphrodite herself says both that she knew deep down it wasn't working, and that what Grace had offered her may turn out to only have been a postponement, not a permanent fix.

Ultimately, of course, what (probably) saves Aphrodite is the same thing that saves all the Idols - Grace toppling the castle and breaking everyone out of the unhealthy pattern they'd been stuck in for almost eighty years - but the point of the Ritual is not that Aphrodite is committed to suicide as the perfect solution until Grace brainwashes her out of it, but that Aphrodite has made a habit of suicide, and is putting off trying to find a different solution until Grace (as an outsider) forces her to confront the problem. Grace doesn't make Aphrodite do anything - she's just an excuse for Aphrodite to do what she knew she should.

Exactly Grace has said and was told she cant make anyone truly do anything that wasnt already there. All she can do is be like i know youre in pain, and im so sorry. But you are not the only one, though you're not alone. Please stop because youre doing the same thing again and again and it isnt working.

[Hunter Wolf]

Publicado originalmente por valeran46:

Publicado originalmente por Elkondo:

Spoilers, obviously.

I see what they were going for. On the surface the entire situation seems to be taken seriously enough. But when you think about it, it's really quite disturbing, if not in bad taste. Not only does Aphrodite keep killing herself, she knowingly keeps grooming regular, innocent people into doing the same. And unless I missed something, that's not really mentioned in conversations with her successor, nor with anyone else for that matter.

And then, despite it being an age old thing that keeps happening over and over, something Aphrodite struggles with and prepares for for a long time, suddenly of all people it's the main character that's able to talk her out of it through a 'you're selfish, think of your friends' song, all within a couple minutes of meeting her?

Maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but for a game that starts with an apology for being created on stolen land, this entire scene feels very insensitive towards a very serious topic many people struggle with.

I don't think it made light of it at all. It presents a situation with a moral choice for the player to make. Each choice is given context and a compelling reason to take it. And, as noted, it's not "exactly" her committing suicide as her eidolon is passed on thereby preserving her to the next host. As for Aphrodite finding her successors, yes, it is stated that she "prepares" them for what is to happen so we can extrapolate that they are aware that this is not the first time, that the memories will return, etc.

As for you being able to talk her out of it when others didn't, we get no hint that anyone tried, other than maybe Eros at the beginning and that isn't even specifically stated to my knowledge (maybe and I missed that). So, you being the first and inspiring others to speak out, with that being the catalyst for her to decide not to go through with it isn't that jarring, least to me.

Eros implies he tries to talk to her out of it for last 80 years but eventually gave up but always tries lightly pleading every time and I think he asked Apollo and a few others to try

[evanelric]

It felt particularly terrible to me that the only way to save her is to yell at her and be a jerk about it. If you have even a single iota of compassion for her or respect for her agency as an individual she'll just do it anyway. I'm deeply disappointed that they're implying that the only way to help someone who is suffering with such severe PTSD is to bully and guilt them into behaving better.

Regardless of your opinion on suicide, or whether or not what Aphrodite (and Venus) are doing counts as such, it's patently obvious that what Aphrodite is doing *isn't working*, but the only way the game allows you to get through to her is to tell her she's being awful to everyone, especially Eros, by making them watch her do this over and over. It feels deeply unsympathetic and cruel that you have to take such a hardline opposed stance to her in order to save her and Venus. She's just repeating the same actions and hoping that this time, something will magically be different, and conning all these sweet idealistic young women into that same hope, knowing full well that she's become them and sent them to Hades at least four times already. Her motivations aren't bad, but her actions are still predatory in that sense.