Combat changes in the DLC update

[KenjiN4]

Recently I came across this RCG2 video right after the DLC got lauched, but instead of focusing on the Lee brothers, it focused on the combat changes:
https://youtu.be/zfZ3uPuNu2I?si=Wk9x5Ho_w2jCx5GY
This is a really useful and straightforward video, which highlights that despite the buffs that some characters had, it made them at the same time inconsistent within the game's combat fundamentals.
Misako's Guard Crush not hitting OTG, Kunio's Up+Heavy not launching diagonally, Provie having different liftoff timings, and other minor stuff. This makes me think if these were intentional or oversights, I'd personally bet on the latter.
While I don't think this is going to be updated, I'm posting the video to raise some awareness that there were changes to the main cast as well. Maybe WF will post another patch notes like they did with the performance patch (preferrably not hiding the main caveats).
But still, here's hoping they can actually listen to the feedback, despite the buffs it ain't cool to see the characters functioning differently than before for an arbitrary reason.

[D. Flame]

Neat, they ruined Misako even more.

[MongooseDave]

One thing the video overlooked is that a lot of characters can do the Light -> Down+Heavy loop since the recovery frames were reduced.

[KenjiN4]

Originally posted by MongooseDave:

One thing the video overlooked is that a lot of characters can do the Light -> Down+Heavy loop since the recovery frames were reduced.

Yeah, since endlag has been reduced as he said in the vid, by consequence this works again.
It already worked with other characters with no need for much extension, so I wonder why they reduced it. Maybe it might make the combat more fluid overall, which I couldn't really notice playing on the Switch as Billy, meaning that I'm playing with a clunky character on an unoptimized version that chugs often.
I did remember however in one of their first lives with the game that they didn't really want this loop back, or that it would be much harder to pull off, so it's quite curious to see they backpedaled on it.

[Shoah Kahn]

Well, I use Mirian, and she got a buff... So, yeah.

[ManOfCulture]

Honestly Wayforward didn't do much to make this game better in the combat department. It does a lot of things worse in my opinion.

1. Once you start a combo, you can't cancel into a block or a back attack.

2. You cannot block while being attacked, but the enemies can? Why?

3. Air combos do a ton of damage, but you are completely defenseless on the way down.

4. Enemies flash red with super attacks that cannot be blocked or parried, which just makes them even more annoying.

5. Enemies are more aggressive and will hover directly over you, making setups a chore,
because they will attack right on top of your sprite.

6. It takes a really long time to level up. Money is slow to gain and getting around is a total chore.

7. The boss fights are somehow worse in this game. Marian, Tsuiko and Blaire just being messy fights that drag out in my opinion.

8. The assists are mostly useless. You have to experiment to get a good setup.

9. The story really blows in this game. I just stopped caring after I saw Marian's backstory.
Not only was her take on Billy and Jimmy not funny, it was gross.

Marian: "We were all pretty close."

Kyoko: "Wow, that's hot."

Me: Who wrote this story, man?

10. The most annoying thing. Enemies have a priority wake up attack that they do.
In a mob this is annoying as hell.

11. Guard Breaks cannot be chained into. You have to stop everything and hold the heavy attack button. Usually results in getting hit anyway.

12. Some of the cast are worse in this game than they were previously, hampering the enjoyment with questionable move set changes. RIP Masako. She ate it the worst, but at least she has a back attack that doesn't flip you into another enemy. Looking at you, Kyoko.

13. Forward+heavy attack leaves you open for way too long. In a game where enemies close distances quickly, I rarely use the forward heavy in mobs.

There are things that I like. Ken, Sabu and Primo were fun fights. The control feel is tighter. The areas all look nice.

But I can't get behind the fact that this is a sequel. It's like an expansion pack, more than a new setting with quality improvements. If we get a 3, it needs to seriously get down with it.

RCG1's combat was a lot more grounded imo. RCG2's combat is like uhhh.. how can I put this? Like shaking a soda bottle? I get what Wayforward is trying to do though.

[KenjiN4]

Originally posted by ManOfCulture:

Honestly Wayforward didn't do much to make this game better in the combat department. It does a lot of things worse in my opinion.

1. Once you start a combo, you can't cancel into a block or a back attack.

2. You cannot block while being attacked, but the enemies can? Why?

3. Air combos do a ton of damage, but you are completely defenseless on the way down.

4. Enemies flash red with super attacks that cannot be blocked or parried, which just makes them even more annoying.

5. Enemies are more aggressive and will hover directly over you, making setups a chore,
because they will attack right on top of your sprite.

6. It takes a really long time to level up. Money is slow to gain and getting around is a total chore.

7. The boss fights are somehow worse in this game. Marian, Tsuiko and Blaire just being messy fights that drag out in my opinion.

8. The assists are mostly useless. You have to experiment to get a good setup.

9. The story really blows in this game. I just stopped caring after I saw Marian's backstory.
Not only was her take on Billy and Jimmy not funny, it was gross.

Marian: "We were all pretty close."

Kyoko: "Wow, that's hot."

Me: Who wrote this story, man?

10. The most annoying thing. Enemies have a priority wake up attack that they do.
In a mob this is annoying as hell.

11. Guard Breaks cannot be chained into. You have to stop everything and hold the heavy attack button. Usually results in getting hit anyway.

12. Some of the cast are worse in this game than they were previously, hampering the enjoyment with questionable move set changes. RIP Masako. She ate it the worst, but at least she has a back attack that doesn't flip you into another enemy. Looking at you, Kyoko.

13. Forward+heavy attack leaves you open for way too long. In a game where enemies close distances quickly, I rarely use the forward heavy in mobs.

There are things that I like. Ken, Sabu and Primo were fun fights. The control feel is tighter. The areas all look nice.

But I can't get behind the fact that this is a sequel. It's like an expansion pack, more than a new setting with quality improvements. If we get a 3, it needs to seriously get down with it.

RCG1's combat was a lot more grounded imo. RCG2's combat is like uhhh.. how can I put this? Like shaking a soda bottle? I get what Wayforward is trying to do though.

While I do find RCG2 an improvement regarding combat, I do agree with most of your points:
About the first point, in the original Japanese release you could indeed actually cancel your attacks with a block, don't know why that doesn't happen again, don't know if you could do so with a back attack however.
Also, as rigid as 1's combat was, at least you could call an assist while airborne, something that 2 could've been able to do so if air combat was their new addition.
Despite the variety of enemies and attacks, they all feel the same, they all have the same aggression type, block between your blows and all, SoR4 for instance has you worried about certain enemies and you already know how to distinguish them pattern-wise as well.
Wish Guard Breaks were much more direct in comparison, if you hold the attack while the enemy is blocking, there's a high chance they'll already stop blocking, pretty much negating the main purpose of it.
Bosses are either good or awful. Marian and Tsuiko are a chore to fight against and they feel more like an endurance test rather than actual fights. Because making a boss throw stuff at you with no chance to rebound, and a boss with 100% uptime of armor sure is intuitive for the revamped combat. Primo is awesome, his pacing is great and all, and Ken is a great introduction boss (heck you can even block between his attacks).
Not a gameplay point but the plot is just awful (even if you disconsider how every character is written the same because they couldn't bother to commit to their "dynamic dialogue"), the presentation and writing really drags the game down, not to mention how the game progression also doesn't do the combat justice at all.
Regarding Misako and Kyoko compared to 1... Misako does feel iffy indeed, but I overall preferred to play with Kyoko on both games, and I feel that she does have a good amount of flair, even if she has no back attack anymore. Doesn't matter much because Marian and Kunio are my faves in this game.
Fw+H didn't really bother me much, I feel like it's supposed to be a low startup + high recovery attack for "get away from me" purposes, but not all Fw+H's are made equal, Riki's is attrocious, Billy's as well.

To me the thing that brings RCG2 down the most is how it didn't really expand on the series in terms of its theme and premise. The campaign drags a lot in favor of references and unneeded missions that could be cut and nothing of value for the plot would be lost.
RCG1 might be rough, but at least if feels more like a consistent game that was done with passion in comparison to 2, which despite being a game with effort clearly put into it (especially on the combat), the release, marketing and PR doesn't suggest it was something made out of genuine interest like 1 was.

[ManOfCulture]

Originally posted by KenjiN4:

Originally posted by ManOfCulture:

Honestly Wayforward didn't do much to make this game better in the combat department. It does a lot of things worse in my opinion.

1. Once you start a combo, you can't cancel into a block or a back attack.

2. You cannot block while being attacked, but the enemies can? Why?

3. Air combos do a ton of damage, but you are completely defenseless on the way down.

4. Enemies flash red with super attacks that cannot be blocked or parried, which just makes them even more annoying.

5. Enemies are more aggressive and will hover directly over you, making setups a chore,
because they will attack right on top of your sprite.

6. It takes a really long time to level up. Money is slow to gain and getting around is a total chore.

7. The boss fights are somehow worse in this game. Marian, Tsuiko and Blaire just being messy fights that drag out in my opinion.

8. The assists are mostly useless. You have to experiment to get a good setup.

9. The story really blows in this game. I just stopped caring after I saw Marian's backstory.
Not only was her take on Billy and Jimmy not funny, it was gross.

Marian: "We were all pretty close."

Kyoko: "Wow, that's hot."

Me: Who wrote this story, man?

10. The most annoying thing. Enemies have a priority wake up attack that they do.
In a mob this is annoying as hell.

11. Guard Breaks cannot be chained into. You have to stop everything and hold the heavy attack button. Usually results in getting hit anyway.

12. Some of the cast are worse in this game than they were previously, hampering the enjoyment with questionable move set changes. RIP Masako. She ate it the worst, but at least she has a back attack that doesn't flip you into another enemy. Looking at you, Kyoko.

13. Forward+heavy attack leaves you open for way too long. In a game where enemies close distances quickly, I rarely use the forward heavy in mobs.

There are things that I like. Ken, Sabu and Primo were fun fights. The control feel is tighter. The areas all look nice.

But I can't get behind the fact that this is a sequel. It's like an expansion pack, more than a new setting with quality improvements. If we get a 3, it needs to seriously get down with it.

RCG1's combat was a lot more grounded imo. RCG2's combat is like uhhh.. how can I put this? Like shaking a soda bottle? I get what Wayforward is trying to do though.

While I do find RCG2 an improvement regarding combat, I do agree with most of your points:
About the first point, in the original Japanese release you could indeed actually cancel your attacks with a block, don't know why that doesn't happen again, don't know if you could do so with a back attack however.
Also, as rigid as 1's combat was, at least you could call an assist while airborne, something that 2 could've been able to do so if air combat was their new addition.
Despite the variety of enemies and attacks, they all feel the same, they all have the same aggression type, block between your blows and all, SoR4 for instance has you worried about certain enemies and you already know how to distinguish them pattern-wise as well.
Wish Guard Breaks were much more direct in comparison, if you hold the attack while the enemy is blocking, there's a high chance they'll already stop blocking, pretty much negating the main purpose of it.
Bosses are either good or awful. Marian and Tsuiko are a chore to fight against and they feel more like an endurance test rather than actual fights. Because making a boss throw stuff at you with no chance to rebound, and a boss with 100% uptime of armor sure is intuitive for the revamped combat. Primo is awesome, his pacing is great and all, and Ken is a great introduction boss (heck you can even block between his attacks).
Not a gameplay point but the plot is just awful (even if you disconsider how every character is written the same because they couldn't bother to commit to their "dynamic dialogue"), the presentation and writing really drags the game down, not to mention how the game progression also doesn't do the combat justice at all.
Regarding Misako and Kyoko compared to 1... Misako does feel iffy indeed, but I overall preferred to play with Kyoko on both games, and I feel that she does have a good amount of flair, even if she has no back attack anymore. Doesn't matter much because Marian and Kunio are my faves in this game.
Fw+H didn't really bother me much, I feel like it's supposed to be a low startup + high recovery attack for "get away from me" purposes, but not all Fw+H's are made equal, Riki's is attrocious, Billy's as well.

To me the thing that brings RCG2 down the most is how it didn't really expand on the series in terms of its theme and premise. The campaign drags a lot in favor of references and unneeded missions that could be cut and nothing of value for the plot would be lost.
RCG1 might be rough, but at least if feels more like a consistent game that was done with passion in comparison to 2, which despite being a game with effort clearly put into it (especially on the combat), the release, marketing and PR doesn't suggest it was something made out of genuine interest like 1 was.

I'm glad you agree with most of my points. In turn I also agree with yours entirely. I love beat em ups. A lot. So if I pick apart RCG2, it's because I want it to get better. Yes, the story totally drags, and it's hampered with these boring as hell side quests. I think I hit my first major issue with Witch's Woods. I got lost for about a half hour before I gave up and looked up a guide. That was when I realized the rest of RCG2 was gonna drag out like this.

If I had to say anything about the characters, Riki was done dirty. I rarely see any Provie players, because few know about Provie and River City Underground. It's a Steam only game. It never came to consoles. Plus, I didn't really like her design translation from underground to RCG2. We used Kyoko. Masako. Kunio. Riki. The Lee bros and Marian.
Just to keep with the themes.


The Double Dragon DLC basically made the game far more enjoyable though. Both Billy and Jimmy have well rounded moves and specials, and the heavy attacks are quick. So when my friend and I maxed them out to 30, we were like. Yup. Fun's over. Let's pick up Masako and Kyoko. Long story short we just gave up trying to level everyone to 30, even with the gamer magazine. By the time we got to Marian and Provie, we were just burnt out. So we stuck with who we liked.

I probably won't be replaying RCG2 anytime soon. There's just way too much padding and backtracking. All I can think of is things like. I'm gonna have to go through Witch's Woods again. Or, backtrack from ocean avenue to the school with no fast travel, because story reasons. Or. I gotta fight Marian or Tsuiko again. Let me put on the tank and the bunny ears so I can just get it over with asap.

The first game I can play through just fine though. RCG1 was grounded and genuine as you said. I love the first game more, even if the combat isn't as good as RCG2. I have 63 hours in RCG2 on PS5. Half of that was padding and leveling out of 6 out of 7 characters.
Honestly I just wanted to see what everyone could do. I regret it kinda lol.

[MongooseDave]

2. You can roll away from being comboed with the help of an assist

6. Doesn’t seem that long to me. Just get some side quests done and you rack up xp and money pretty quickly.

9. You sound like a puritan, get over it.

10. Jump straight up as they’re getting up and their wake up attack will miss you

11. I mostly use guard breaks for relaunching downed enemies but if you want to combo into them, doing it after a wall bounce is a good option.

13. The only Forward+Heavy that leaves you open is Kyoko’s. Everyone else’s can be special canceled.

With Marian I like to do her neutral special after a forward+heavy wall bounce

With Riki you can cancel it with a light attack

With Kunio you can cancel it with his towel whip

With Misako you can cancel it with her neutral special

I don’t use forward+heavy much with Provie but she has options, too

[ManOfCulture]

Originally posted by MongooseDave:

2. You can roll away from being comboed with the help of an assist

6. Doesn’t seem that long to me. Just get some side quests done and you rack up xp and money pretty quickly.

9. You sound like a puritan, get over it.

10. Jump straight up as they’re getting up and their wake up attack will miss you

11. I mostly use guard breaks for relaunching downed enemies but if you want to combo into them, doing it after a wall bounce is a good option.

13. The only Forward+Heavy that leaves you open is Kyoko’s. Everyone else’s can be special canceled.

With Marian I like to do her neutral special after a forward+heavy wall bounce

With Riki you can cancel it with a light attack

With Kunio you can cancel it with his towel whip

With Misako you can cancel it with her neutral special

I don’t use forward+heavy much with Provie but she has options, too

Your opinions are your own, and while I appreciate your advice, let me clarify things with you.

1. Going into moves to cancel other moves is not what I wanted. That's just trying to make the best out of a tough situation. When I speak I mean in game mechanics. Actual fundamentals.
Not fighting game tech.

2. The issue isn't the game being long. It's the kind of padding and the annoyances that come from it. You should of kept reading before you opened your mouth.

3. Don't call me a puritan. You can stop with that. Learn to respect people. What I wanted was a genuine story like the first game. Not a cringe fest. The story is the weakest part of RCG2 anyway.


These are my opinions. So why so hostile? The fact that I had to explain this to you, means you did not even try to understand were I was coming from.


I will say no more to you.

[MongooseDave]

Act like a puritan you get called a puritan, not my fault you want to be like that. It’s a joke about how it’s never detailed whose gf Marian is. Sorry you didn’t get where they were coming from.

Besides how you felt about Marian and the Lees (because it’s silly to have such an issue with it) I really wasn’t being hostile. That’s how you chose to interpret my tone. I was being matter-of-fact with the rest. Maybe you should have thought better before opening your mouth.

[ZombieRommel]

Originally posted by ManOfCulture:

Honestly Wayforward didn't do much to make this game better in the combat department. It does a lot of things worse in my opinion.

1. Once you start a combo, you can't cancel into a block or a back attack.

2. You cannot block while being attacked, but the enemies can? Why?

3. Air combos do a ton of damage, but you are completely defenseless on the way down.

4. Enemies flash red with super attacks that cannot be blocked or parried, which just makes them even more annoying.

5. Enemies are more aggressive and will hover directly over you, making setups a chore,
because they will attack right on top of your sprite.

6. It takes a really long time to level up. Money is slow to gain and getting around is a total chore.

7. The boss fights are somehow worse in this game. Marian, Tsuiko and Blaire just being messy fights that drag out in my opinion.

8. The assists are mostly useless. You have to experiment to get a good setup.

9. The story really blows in this game. I just stopped caring after I saw Marian's backstory.
Not only was her take on Billy and Jimmy not funny, it was gross.

Marian: "We were all pretty close."

Kyoko: "Wow, that's hot."

Me: Who wrote this story, man?

10. The most annoying thing. Enemies have a priority wake up attack that they do.
In a mob this is annoying as hell.

11. Guard Breaks cannot be chained into. You have to stop everything and hold the heavy attack button. Usually results in getting hit anyway.

12. Some of the cast are worse in this game than they were previously, hampering the enjoyment with questionable move set changes. RIP Masako. She ate it the worst, but at least she has a back attack that doesn't flip you into another enemy. Looking at you, Kyoko.

13. Forward+heavy attack leaves you open for way too long. In a game where enemies close distances quickly, I rarely use the forward heavy in mobs.

There are things that I like. Ken, Sabu and Primo were fun fights. The control feel is tighter. The areas all look nice.

But I can't get behind the fact that this is a sequel. It's like an expansion pack, more than a new setting with quality improvements. If we get a 3, it needs to seriously get down with it.

RCG1's combat was a lot more grounded imo. RCG2's combat is like uhhh.. how can I put this? Like shaking a soda bottle? I get what Wayforward is trying to do though.

Any idea if the wakeup attacks can be parried? I agree it's stupidly annoying. Basically have to reset the fight after every knockdown.

[KenjiN4]

Originally posted by ZombieRommel:

Any idea if the wakeup attacks can be parried? I agree it's stupidly annoying. Basically have to reset the fight after every knockdown.

In theory they should, looks like any other attack to me, except it seems it has much higher priority than your average attacks (think like a light or EX dragon punch in a fighting game)
If parrying doesn’t work, maybe a move that makes you invincible might do the trick, unless the enemies also are invincible during wakeup

[Indigo]

Wakeup attacks are generally just their same normal attacks, so they can be parried. Their use of them is a little inconsistent so it can be finicky to parry the first hit, but in most cases you can just guard the first and learn to parry the next hit or two, since wakeup attacks are also usually 3-hit combos.

It's also a good option to jump in place as they get up, making them miss the first hit, and you can hit them on the way down. It needs some timing since enemies are invincible on wakeup and during the first hit of their wakeup attacks.

The headphone martial artist enemies are a special case, they have an unique (and unusually fast) wakeup flashkick. But this also makes them the easiest to parry, because their wakeup is always consistent.

[KenjiN4]

Originally posted by Indigo:

Wakeup attacks are generally just their same normal attacks, so they can be parried. Their use of them is a little inconsistent so it can be finicky to parry the first hit, but in most cases you can just guard the first and learn to parry the next hit or two, since wakeup attacks are also usually 3-hit combos.

It's also a good option to jump in place as they get up, making them miss the first hit, and you can hit them on the way down. It needs some timing since enemies are invincible on wakeup and during the first hit of their wakeup attacks.

The headphone martial artist enemies are a special case, they have an unique (and unusually fast) wakeup flashkick. But this also makes them the easiest to parry, because their wakeup is always consistent.

Didn't know you could cancel your block to try and parry other attacks, I swear I thought I was in a blockstun/blockstring state while blocking, quite neat.
And yeah, seems like using an invul attack of your own isn't a good choice either if the mobs are also invulnerable during wakeup, kinda limits on the creativity with the combat but it is what it is.

[KenjiN4]

Misako's GC now hits OTG after updates, but the other characters are still unchanged. Kunio actually got worse since his diagonal launcher doesn't work even on stunned enemies.
One step forward and one backwards I guess