FEEDBACK: Optimizing Builds

[Haven]

I'm really enjoying Windblown and have been playing solo as well as with friends.

One of the issues I'm observing is that by unlocking more weapons, trinkets, and gifts, it increases the range of potential build combinations but dilutes the likelihood that you will actually get the required items throughout a run.

This is an issue because the more things that are unlocked, the less likely it is that you will be able to target, or optimize certain build paths.

I would like to see some option to prioritize certain weapons / gifts / trinkets prior to a run to increase the likelihood of them showing up, or to have higher drop rates for upgrades of currently equipped weapons, or gifts that synergize with each other.

It could be nice to have something similar to Hades 2 where new Gods would appear with boons until you've selected 3-4 of them, then the chosen gods continue to appear throughout that run so that you can actually work towards specific build combinations.

It's frustrating to have a combination of weapons that synergizes with gifts and trinkets, and then you keep getting different weapons and trinkets dropping that would render the current setup useless, instead of upgrades to the current setup.

For example, having a couple gifts that interact with Burn early on requires you to be able to activate that status effect. No problem with Sirocco, but if you don't get any upgrades for it as you progress and instead are offered new weapon varieties constantly, it cripples the entire progression route.

With the way drops currently work, I'm holding off unlocking everything because it just dilutes the likelihood that I'll get what I'm looking for in a run. There's gotta be some sort of solution for this.

Unlocking more weapons, gifts, and trinkets shouldn't feel like it's making the game less rewarding and more difficult.

[Chadwick Strongpants]

I mean, that is the entire point of roguelikes. You're not supposed to optimize pre-planned "builds". You're supposed to adapt on the fly and synergize a workable loadout with what the game decides to give you during that run. Which requires some know how and understanding how the game's systems work, and what to prioritize when givien a choice. - That's the entire appeal for a lot of roguelike players.

Being adaptable and flexible will always serve you better in these types of games, rather than trying to force something you will inevitably miss a crucial component for.

[Haven]

I think there's a balance that can be struck, that the game would benefit from. Again, Hades 1 & 2 does a good job balancing the random nature of drops with creating opportunities for build paths.

[Chadwick Strongpants]

Originally posted by Haven:

I think there's a balance that can be struck, that the game would benefit from. Again, Hades 1 & 2 does a good job balancing the random nature of drops with creating opportunities for build paths.

This game does that too. It already prioritizes offering gifts that potentially synergize with your current gear and it's effects, so it's not like you're completely flying blind.

You may not be able to cherry pick 100 % what you want, but it does try to work with you, to an extent. And it's not like you're locked into anything. You're always free to replace any piece of equipment that has outlived it's usefulness - which will become increasingly more obvious the longer you play the game.

[Haven]

I'm pretty far in the game - unlocked almost everything with cogs and multiple difficulty levels.

Cool to hear about the gifts, but as far as I can tell that doesn't occur with weapons. It's extremely rare that I get upgrades to currently equipped weapons.

I'm curious if its possible to add in more elements of meta-progression to the game that support different build paths, buffs, gifts, weapons, etc. rather than just expanding the number of items in the available pool of options.

[Chadwick Strongpants]

Originally posted by Haven:

ICool to hear about the gifts, but as far as I can tell that doesn't occur with weapons. It's extremely rare that I get upgrades to currently equipped weapons.

See, that's the thing where being flexible comes into play. You shouldn't ever expect to get constant upgrades with this type of game. Instead you should ask yourself, "how does this weapon affect my current loadout, and does it make it more effective?"

If for example your current build has a lot of status effects, but no way to apply it constantly, and a boomerang drops - you take the boomerang, because it applies them very, very quickly and they really pile up, especially with a couple speed boons. And if you're not comfortable with using boomerang, you take that opportunity to get used to it. Because in the long run this is what will make you a better player.

[Haven]

I understand the concept. I'm quite adept at roguelites, having gone through many of them.

My critique remains.
If the introduction of more items, weapons, and trinkets only serves to dilute synergistic combinations, then the game isn't rewarding players for progressing, it is punishing them. Especially as one moves into higher difficulty modes, where synergies can make or break a run.

Being flexible with builds is certainly a staple of these games, but when a simple weapon swap renders 2 or 3 gifts useless, then it brings up major balancing issues regarding builds, drop rates, and potential combinations.

Why focus on any gifts that build upon a specific status effect if it only pigeonholes a player into depending on a specific weapon loadout with no guarantee of any future upgrades for that weapon?

The other option is to create a generalized build in order to compensate for eventual changes to loadout; aka focusing on versatility rather than speciality.
This renders many of the gifts and status effects to the bottom of the tier list, as they are synergy dependant.

It disincentivizes a sense of progression and build creativity.

[Chadwick Strongpants]

*shrug*

Then I suppose you gotta keep save files with the stuff unlocked you actually want, until they add options to remove the rogue out of this roguelike. Like in Dead Cells.

[dingbat]

@Haven I'm with you.

In DC it was mad how you could upgrade weapons and basically havbe them all complimenting each other. One does fire damage, one does increased damage to enemies on fire etc etc

None of that is here. Yet. I'm hoping that something similar to that will eventually be added. The game is pretty dry without it.

[Haven]

This could be remedied by adding in some kind of meta progression elements, such as unlocking the ability to spend resources to choose a preferred weapon (type?), status effect, or trinket - not necessarily guaranteeing the drop, but increasing the likelihood of said drop throughout a run.

There's options available to resolve this.

[TLATER]

I think part of the issue is precisely that your gift options become tailored to the weapons you equip (e.g. having the Goo Brush all but guarantees getting every single gift that says goo, even if they don't really combo well with it), but most of the time you end up replacing your weapons from the first couple of biomes, as later ones get additional perks and overall stronger.

This means that your early gift option pool is in fact either more limited than it should be, *or* super anti-synergistic with your weapons by the time your reach biome 4, unless you happen to get a pure weapon upgrade.

It's also a little frustrating that progressing with the game and unlocking more stuff dilutes the pool, making it feel like you're just weakening your options. Feels silly to spend resources to make yourself weaker, there's no reason to ever buy a solid 70% the gift options, all doing so does is make the game harder.

I appreciate that roguelikes are fun in part because of the run diversity, and not always getting what you want. It's just that the way the game gives you these options feels like you're being punished for doing well.

[dingbat]

Originally posted by TLATER:

I think part of the issue is precisely that your gift options become tailored to the weapons you equip (e.g. having the Goo Brush all but guarantees getting every single gift that says goo, even if they don't really combo well with it), but most of the time you end up replacing your weapons from the first couple of biomes, as later ones get additional perks and overall stronger.

This means that your early gift option pool is in fact either more limited than it should be, *or* super anti-synergistic with your weapons by the time your reach biome 4, unless you happen to get a pure weapon upgrade.

It's also a little frustrating that progressing with the game and unlocking more stuff dilutes the pool, making it feel like you're just weakening your options. Feels silly to spend resources to make yourself weaker, there's no reason to ever buy a solid 70% the gift options, all doing so does is make the game harder.

I appreciate that roguelikes are fun in part because of the run diversity, and not always getting what you want. It's just that the way the game gives you these options feels like you're being punished for doing well.

Yeah, even with the reroll unlocked I agree with this. The gifts just don't compliment many weapons, it's very haphazard.

It is also irritating to have to constantly trade weapons for new biomes, just so it's a high enough level. Even if its a weapon you don't like. Not being able to upgrade current weapons is kinda bogus

[dingbat]

Originally posted by TLATER:

I appreciate that roguelikes are fun in part because of the run diversity, and not always getting what you want. It's just that the way the game gives you these options feels like you're being punished for doing well.

It feels this way because only a few of the gifts compliment each other. And its barebones at best, one example is spawning a scythe after x base damage gift + scythe duration and damage gift. There's two other examples with goo and brutality, that's it as far as I've seen.

I was obsessed with having weapons and powers compliment each other in DC, unfortunately without that I'm getting kinda bored.